Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-10-2017, 18:52   #1
Marine Service Provider
 
O_salt's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bellevue, Wa.
Boat: Beneteau, First 47.7, 48.5', Flyer
Posts: 33
Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

I have a 2001 Beneteau First 47.7 with a rudder problem.
The rudder is stiff when turning, this is the second time I have had this problem. The first time it was caused by a head of a SS screw that had broken off on the shaft chase and jammed up the bearings and the bearing carrier was turning inside the bearing housing. I was able to get the rudder out by banging it with a large block of wood with a sledge hammer. I replaced the bearing chase with a new Jefa bearing made for this housing. I did not replace the housing.
Currently I am on the hard in Guaymas, Mx. I have done the following things;
• Removed quadrant
• Removed SS pin
• Removed SS hose clamp
• Moved V-gasket up the rudder shaft
• Removed top retention rod and thrust bushing
Rudder does not want to come out, the rudder is impossible to rotate by hand, using two 2X4 as a tiller on the rudder blade; it is still very hard to rotate the rudder.
I have poured vinegar down the shaft from inside the boat, I worked the rudder back and forth, I then used a 4X4 block and a sledge hammer to try and drive the rudder out. (This is how we got the rudder out before).
Anyone out there had any experience with this? Any suggestions for getting this rudder out?
Did I miss anything? One of the things I will try tomorrow is to remove the top bearing Chase and carrier as that is removed from above deck.

O_salt
Flyer, First 47.7
__________________

__________________
O_salt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2017, 22:33   #2
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 4,583
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

Instead of whacking on it, can you use a hydraulic jack, like one for a car?
__________________

__________________
Paul L
http://svjeorgia.blogspot.com
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 08:05   #3
Marine Service Provider
 
O_salt's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bellevue, Wa.
Boat: Beneteau, First 47.7, 48.5', Flyer
Posts: 33
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

Hi, thanks for the responce, braced against what?

O_salt
__________________
O_salt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 08:38   #4
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 2,593
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

If your stock is not already bent from your last sledge hammer attack, it will be by the time your done.
When you do get it out have checked for true and fatigue by a qualified machine shop.
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 08:53   #5
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,649
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

Why would you not bother to post photos?
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 08:56   #6
Registered User
 
gabilo's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Mediterranean
Boat: CT-47
Posts: 95
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

Jack braced against a sturdy log lying across the deck, sides tied town to the cradle .
__________________
gabilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 09:07   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

Have you tried a heat gun?
__________________
Globaljenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 09:15   #8
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

Once I had a problem that seems similar due to marine growth inside the bottom bearing, assuming that you have one of those auto aligning systems with a teflon ball (not teflon but I don't remember the name, similar but better).

On my case they had to broke the "teflon" ball using a chisel to be able to take the rudder out.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 11:36   #9
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,324
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

Do you have an emergency tiller which fits on the top of the rudder shaft?? On my first 456 I put the tiller on, then rigged a line in an inverted V over the top of the tiller and to the primary winch. Put a load on the line, wiggled the rudder back and forth, and it finally started to move down.

I'd be a little leery of removing the top bearing completely and trying to push the shaft out--it could get misaligned and really stuck. If you can get the top bearing off, its not the problem, so I would lubricated it well and put it back on as a guide.

FWIW, my shaft was 4" solid SS, and I wasn't worried at all about bending it by pushing or whacking on its top.
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 18:44   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Geelong Australia
Boat: Beneteau First 44.7
Posts: 63
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

The problem of stuck rudder is often caused by corrosion of the aluminium self aligning bearing housing compressing the bearing housing and torlon needles onto the stainless steel rudder stock bush.In some cases the bush breaks the epoxy bond to the rudder stock allowing sticky steering. Or locked steering if the bond is not broken.
The rudder should be able to be "slid" out as normal using a suitable mandrel to allow judicious blows with a heavy (sledge) hammer. This is a painful experience to watch.
I have developed a sacrificial anode kit which attaches an anode to the bearing housing and/or bonds the bearing housing to the saildrive leg anode. The kit comes with a reference electrode and voltmeter to allow the saildrive leg and bearing housing CP system to be monitored.
PM me if interested.
I have a 2005 First 44.7 and since installing the anodes have pulled the rudder and serviced the bearings each time the boat is antifouled.
__________________
frant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 19:58   #11
Marine Service Provider
 
O_salt's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bellevue, Wa.
Boat: Beneteau, First 47.7, 48.5', Flyer
Posts: 33
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

Hi All, thanks for the responses.

I got the rudder out, thanks Paul L. for the Jack idea. I braced it against a contraption of all thread and metal bars. Applied pressure then bang on it with the sledge hammer. See attached photo.

Boat Poker, the rudder and shaft is carbon fiber, thank goodness...!

Frant, I agree the problem is corrosion of the bearing carrier. The oxidation from the aluminum expands and creates pressure on the bearing which exerts pressure on shaft and acts as a break.

I have bonded my boat, but did not bond the lower rudder tube. Should I bond this to the rest of the boat? Or should I run a cable to the deck from the tube to connect a sacrificial fish too? (Oh, oh, this is going to get interesting..!)

Have you ever removed the bearing carrier?

O_salt
Flyer Beneteau First 47.7
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20171005_135318.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	333.8 KB
ID:	157197   Click image for larger version

Name:	20171005_161832.jpg
Views:	88
Size:	357.7 KB
ID:	157198  

__________________
O_salt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 20:20   #12
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 4,583
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

O_salt
Nice removal contraption
The aluminum races that I have used had a hard anodizing. If you nick the anodozing then you can get corrosion. Also, copper based bottom paint should not be applied on aluminum.
Jeffa has a nice, all composite and removable rudder bearing. I replaced ours about 4 years ago and it has performed well. If you drop the rudder you can turn and twist the bearing to remove for cleaning and inspection. Plus no metal parts.
__________________
Paul L
http://svjeorgia.blogspot.com
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 20:20   #13
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 2,593
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

congrats. Have a cold one, you deserve it.
I've just spent 8 days getting a shaft flange off. I know the feeling of relief
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 20:34   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Geelong Australia
Boat: Beneteau First 44.7
Posts: 63
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

I haven't personally changed the aluminium housing but I have seen it done. The old housing was chopped up with a recipro saw and bashed and chiseled from the boat. I would have cried if it was my boat. The damage to fglass was duly repaired and a new housing sikaflexed in. The owner subsequently had me install an anode. Drill and tap a stud into the housing from inside the boat. I use an M8 stud approx 20mm deep hole (6mm fglass and 14mm into the housing) taking care not to drill through the housing completely. I bond the housing to the saildrive leg and suspend an anode over the side while in dock.
I use an aluminium split ring anode and a slightly more electronegative aluminium suspension anode to extend the ring anode life at dock but still protecting the housing when that anode is withdrawn.

I remove the rudder and bearings each slip and seal the bearing carrier liberally with winch grease. The inner anodised face of the housing is still corrosion free but there was quite extensive pitting corrosion to the exposed bottom edge before I fitted the anode. There has been no subsequent corrosion in the past 3 years.
__________________
frant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2017, 20:57   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Geelong Australia
Boat: Beneteau First 44.7
Posts: 63
Re: Beneteau First 47.7, Stiff Rudder and Stuck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
O_salt
Nice removal contraption
The aluminum races that I have used had a hard anodizing. If you nick the anodozing then you can get corrosion. Also, copper based bottom paint should not be applied on aluminum.
Jeffa has a nice, all composite and removable rudder bearing. I replaced ours about 4 years ago and it has performed well. If you drop the rudder you can turn and twist the bearing to remove for cleaning and inspection. Plus no metal parts.
This is not supported by studies and is perpetuated by paint manufacturers. Trilux 33 has approx 20% cuprous oxide as active ingredient. Longlife has approx 35% cuprous oxide. Cuprous oxide is less noble than copper (closer to open circuit potential of an alumimuim saildrive leg) and in any event is electrically isolated from the aluminium substrate by the carrier resin. There have been several corrosion studies on this matter that conclude that there is no benefit to the lower cuprous oxide content paints. I am presently running an in water trial on saildrive leg to demonstrate and paint my own saildrive and housing in Longlife to extend the time between antifoul.
However I do stress the importance of maintaining and monitoring the anode system.
__________________

__________________
frant is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
beneteau, rudder

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Super stiff, rigid and tight...not appropriate for cruising? nematon785 General Sailing Forum 22 26-03-2017 23:02
rudder stuck nflpa5 Propellers & Drive Systems 2 02-03-2014 15:39
Help needed with Beneteau First 375 Rudder PremierCru Construction, Maintenance & Refit 9 17-07-2013 08:09
Why is My Hydraulic Steering Very Stiff and ' Knotty '? Shanaly Construction, Maintenance & Refit 5 05-03-2012 15:40
Stuck rudder b-rad Construction, Maintenance & Refit 13 04-04-2011 05:43



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.