Awlgrip - Where did I go wrong?

[Lignator]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Acetone's main risk is flammability and even that is not much of an issue because it evaporates so readily. It is not considered a carcinogen or to have any specific chronic or toxic effects as an industrial consumable.

It's produced, and metabolised, in the body of alcoholics and diabetics in far greater concentrations than absorption when rinsing one's hands.

It is also a substance that does not degrades the environment. It is, chemically, the simplest ketone and breaks down readily.

I can think of many more substances worthy of banning.

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Yes I have read all this stuff, and also that asbestos was known as a killer at the turn of the 19th century but it took 60 or so years for it to be banned in the UK. Let's not get into climate change.

Who knows what combinations of introduced chemicals do to the body longterm, no one does. Acetone can lodge in the liver however shortterm and ketosis though well documented is also an area of dispute among chemists analysing what happens there re diabetes etc. None of these "facts" are given.

I am a sceptic and prefer to defend myself and not rely on mass opinion, especially when industries have vested interests.

It would be easy for me to use acetone now, much easier than finding environmentally and for me physically preferable alternatives. I won't touch the stuff.

I react against many of these chemicals from industrial exposure and only care to tell other people so they don't have the same problems.

One thing is FOR SURE. People working in the chemical industries hands on have much less long lifespans than bankers.

[Lignator]

Originally Posted by lateral

+10 on acetone in above.

Lignators your post is erroneous.
I have snorkelled in the stuff over the years. What is dangerous is what is dissolved in it.

West 105/205 is good stuff, but one day you WILL regret not paying attention to its blushing characteristics.

So- how old are you? I have been in the wood trade for 40 years and have seen a few people die from industrial diseases.

I am not saying it doesn't perform well, in my experience it does.
However I had a reaction against it and couldn't even enter my boat hulls for some years until they were painted out and all surface traces of dust or blush removed. I had to be covered 100%, only work for an hour or so, and use an airmask then have a cold shower immediately to go near it. Then I had to chuck all that stuff away apart from the air mask when the filters and seals had to be cleaned.

I read up on it at the time and virtually abandoned the build (for about 8 yrs) until I found a substitute I could work with, in fact I nearly put a match under the boat I was so pissed off with the waste of time and money.

My reading and talks with other people back up what I have said.

The people I know who were professional laminators all knew they had to get out of it before 40 years old and all did.

Wood is much better to build with, providing you avoid dust.

Yes I agree that acetone appears to be a vehicle to carry other stuff in it into your body, but it must be very hard to use it longterm without that happening. Cleaning (sic) your skin with it must facilitate that.

[lateral]

I'm off topic but....
I hear you. I am heading for epoxy sensitisation. Cedar, remu dust drives me crazy. Just because its wood and natural doesn't mean it isn't poisonous.
What I do know, for me, is that acetone does not produce physiological responses that other things do. Styrene monomer, MEk, Xylene, toluene, trichlorethylene,......
Benzene, diesel to name a few. With you on MDF dust.

I do use vinegar but ALWAYS clean the vinegar out of the brush with acetone.

Back on topic. I have a 3mm ply headlining that was epoxied with 105/205 sealed in wet weather with cursory anti-blush wipe down.

We glued vinyl headliner with 3m spay contact adhesive. Damn HL'er has been peeling off in places ever since.

BTW 65yrs & counting....... Sad losing ones mates because of the work they chose.

When I was young & more ignorant I used to glass surfboards with no gloves and wash off in acetone to the elbows.
As you have said the problem is that the addition of acetone probably facilitates the transmission of the nasties into your tissue more rapidly.
Long since given that up. Now if ever (very rarely) I get epoxy on my skin its- let harden & pick it off or vinegar and soap & water.

[Lignator]

Originally Posted by lateral

I'm off topic but....
I hear you. I am heading for epoxy sensitisation. Cedar, remu dust drives me crazy. Just because its wood and natural doesn't mean it isn't poisonous.
What I do know, for me, is that acetone does not produce physiological responses that other things do. Styrene monomer, MEk, Xylene, toluene, trichlorethylene,......
Benzene, diesel to name a few. With you on MDF dust.

I do use vinegar but ALWAYS clean the vinegar out of the brush with acetone.

Back on topic. I have a 3mm ply headlining that was epoxied with 105/205 sealed in wet weather with cursory anti-blush wipe down.

We glued vinyl headliner with 3m spay contact adhesive. Damn HL'er has been peeling off in places ever since.

BTW 65yrs & counting....... Sad losing ones mates because of the work they chose.

When I was young & more ignorant I used to glass surfboards with no gloves and wash off in acetone to the elbows.
As you have said the problem is that the addition of acetone probably facilitates the transmission of the nasties into your tissue more rapidly.
Long since given that up. Now if ever (very rarely) I get epoxy on my skin its- let harden & pick it off or vinegar and soap & water.

Glad to hear you are doing well old feller! (Not much older than me...) I know it's a complex subject and it's hard to get into and over properly unless you are actually a chemist, it's making assumptions based on information read and assimilated from a layman's point of view, then, importantly, compared with experience.

My knowledge is more about wood, and I know that it was epidemiology that found the link between wood dust and nasal cancer (chair industries in or near High Wycombe in England). Generally with wood, the most durable woods have the most toxic dust, cedar is one of them. Strangely beech is not durable but is a main factor in the epidemiology studies that revealed that nasal cancer is linked to dusty wood industry.

The trouble with epidemiology is that it's too late for some people...

Bon soir, wherever you are

[basssears]

Gotta love Worst Marine... or not...

Originally Posted by Wind River

I just drove 55 miles to get to West Marine in Newport Beach, Ca. because they said they had 17 quarts of the 545 epoxy primer in Stock and the converter. When I go to look for it, the primer is there on the shelf but no converter. I ask for help finding it and they say, "Yes, we have 17 quarts of what you need but we can't sell it in this county. Sorry you drove all the way here, we let the person you talked to know that we can't sell that."

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[jeepbluetj]

Originally Posted by basssears

Gotta love Worst Marine... or not...

Or California where a normal boating product cannot be purchased due to some county board.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Wind River

I have read so much information between Awlgrip and Awlwood in the past months that it "Awl" runs togother.

This is where I found the household cleanser idea:
Surface Preparation and Priming - Fiberglass/Gelcoat

"Raw laminating resin is very hard and slick compared to pigmented gelcoats and fairing compounds.

Both polyester and epoxy resins must be washed with household cleanser and water before sanding or grinding. Washing removes mold release materials, un-reacted styrene on polyester surfaces and amine residue on epoxy resins.

Raw fiberglass resin must be ground with 36–60 grit paper until 100% of the surface is dull, with a 36–60 grit surface profile. Allowing even small spots of un-sanded resin in the weave of the fiber strands can lead to adhesion failures.

Fiberglass repairs often have an extra layer of laminating resin applied to give the repair a smoother finish. This allows easy sanding without exposing the fiberglass itself.

Even though these areas may appear fair and true it is important to give them the full 36–60 grit grind to ensure good adhesion of the coating system."


This also give merit to Zach's idea that the surface may be too slick. I thought I remember reading not to use sanding grits heavier than 120 grit, but this is suggesting 36-60 grit.

So, I guess it's time for a cleanser scrub down, a wash with ammonia and water, heavier sanding grit, a two rag wipe with Denatured Alcohol and two coats of 545 primer that I should be able to get in San Diego County. I will confirm that I can buy it there before I drive 90 miles one way to get there.

Instead of doing all kinds of crazy things your read on the internet, RTFM. Manufacturers know how their stuff works, better the some guy on the internen that may have painted one thing 20 years ago. As soon as you deviate from their instructions, you let them off the hook if it turns out bad. If you follow their instructions implicitly, and the job turns out bad, you can get free product to redo.

[Wind River]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Instead of doing all kinds of crazy things your read on the internet, RTFM. Manufacturers know how their stuff works, better the some guy on the internen that may have painted one thing 20 years ago. As soon as you deviate from their instructions, you let them off the hook if it turns out bad. If you follow their instructions implicitly, and the job turns out bad, you can get free product to redo.

I agree with you Rod, but if I had done everything exactly like the manual said I may still have had this problem. They do not address every possible scenario that can cause failure. So far I have only lost a few ounces of paint and converter. Do you never substitute one product for another that you believe to be equivalent? i.e. Paper towels for cloth rags, I never would have thought that could be a problem. I am not a professional in this industry and I obviously made a mistake somewhere and I am trying to learn from it.

If what I learn is that to use Awlgrip paint I need to use Awl-prep, Awl-sandpaper, Awl-wipedown, Awl-primer, Awl-tack cloths, Awl-rollers, Awl-rags, Awl-stir sticks, Awl-mixing cups and spray with a air compressor full of Awl-air just to make sure the product doesn't fish eye, then I will use a different product.

I realize I am going over the top with that last comment, but I screwed up somewhere that isn't obvious to me and I have got some good ideas here to remedy this.

I intend to get the Awl-prep to wipe things down with, get lint free towels instead of paper towels, prime with 545 and sand again but I can't see using 36 - 60 grit paper for a top coat like Awlgrips manual says. Is that what you use? Have you ever coated with Awlgrip over West epoxy without primer? Did it work for you?
You are a professional in this industry and not just some guy on the internet, I do value your opinion and would like to know what you think happened here specifically and if what I intend to do is what you would also recommend. Maybe there is something that you have learned over the years that has helped you, that might help everyone, other than RTFM.

[Mithril Bham]

[QUOTE=sean9c;2121742]The only time you want to worry about the 24 hour recoat time is if you are going to apply paint over unsanded primer. You are going to sand your primer so recoat time doesn't matter.


Thanks. Didn't know that. Was taught differently. Sure saves a lot of time to not have to sand a 44ft boat though.

[Zach]

Hey Wind River...

This is what I was trying to say about sanding.

This isn't my picture, but one google found...

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...n/IMG_0497.jpg

See how the epoxy in this picture has turned milky white? The shiny spots paint won't stick to and won't lay out because of surface tension. Your picture, is almost all shiny with very few areas that are milky or opaque in color. Sanded epoxy with 120 grit, you shouldn't be able to make out much of the grain of the wood through it.

[Wind River]

Zach - Mine looked just like that before the wiping down, although I will give another sanding before the next try.

I talked to the Awlgrip rep about this problem and he made a few suggestions and explanations. Some are the same that were already discussed here.

He said that LPU paints don't grip the surface they are applied to very well. He had a name for this that escapes me. Their 545 epoxy primer is supposed be able to grip the substrate much better than the paint itself but the LPU paint grips to the epoxy primer much better.

As far as the wipe down with Acetone, he said the problem with it is that it evaporates too quickly and by the time you get there with the clean rag it has already evaporated and still leaves the "mud" as he called it. Likely this is the cause of the fish eye's.

He recommended their T0115 wipe down solvent but also suggested the the T0031 brushing reducer that I already had would work well too and it is very slow to evaporate.

He has not heard of paper towels causing this problem, so I am probably pretty safe there but they are not likely link free and would require a tack cloth to remove it.

He agreed that 36-60 grit for a topcoat was excessive. I am sending him the link to their literature. Maybe that will be revised.

This is not much different than many of you have suggested and what is in their literature. In many cases it is exactly the same. He said the DIY'ers overthink this process. When you watch a professional use this, you think they are being sloppy and careless, the difference is that they know what really matters.

[s/v Jedi]

The Awlgrip application guide does not say to use 36-60 grit before topcoating. For brush/roll it says 280-400 grit. RTFM.
The only places 36-60 grit is mentiined is about grinding on raw fiberglass or peeling gelcoat etc. before the first coat of primer goes on.


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[Wind River]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The Awlgrip application guide does not say to use 36-60 grit before topcoating. For brush/roll it says 280-400 grit. RTFM.
The only places 36-60 grit is mentiined is about grinding on raw fiberglass or peeling gelcoat etc. before the first coat of primer goes on.


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Thanks Nick,
Apparently a remedial reading comprehension class should be in my future. Or at least have only one page of Awlgrip information opened on my computer at one time so I don't confuse myself (and others) with what I think I am reading.

For those that missed it, the link I gave sighting Awlgrips manual stating that 36-60 grit should be used for top coat prep was actually for the primer on raw resin (which is what I have) not for top coat. I thought it made sense to do this with primer and stated so, but I believed I was reading from the top coat section when I was actually reading from the primer section.

I think I should coin a new acronym. Instead of RTFM it can be RAUTFM (Read And Understand The F***ing Manual)

I wanted this thread to be helpful to myself and others so this is what I have learned from this little endeavor.
There may be shortcuts or substitutes when using Awlgrip but unless you have the experience to know what they are, RAUTFM and do/use what it says. Substitute materials and processes at you own risk.

Thanks everyone for your input. I know the answer to my original question now.

[sean9c]

Don't lose track of the fact that your original problem, fish eye, had nothing to do with you not applying 545. It was surface contamination. You can 545 if you want but if you do the same prep as you did the first time you'll get the same result.
Interesting to think about primers like 545. They are epoxy based, so epoxy resin that is then adulterated with pigment, talc (to make it easier to sand) and thinners to make it flow. WS is epoxy resin that has not been adulterated with anything.
One thing that will be nice in using the 545 is that it will give you a nice one color surface to top coat over. The white LP is pretty transparent.
Going to disagree with the Awlgrip rep a little. The adhesion of LP to properly prepped surface is tenacious. What is weird about all the LP's that I've used and it doesn't matter if it's over their primer or not, is that when applying by brush it's like it doesn't want to stick to the surface. You can thoroughly brush out an area, be 100% sure you have coverage, then end up with a little holiday where the paint just didn't leave the brush onto the surface. Brush over it again and it's no problem. A weird and frustrating thing.
Good luck, it'll go fine this time

[s/v Jedi]

I agree that it was contamination. After West System, I clean it with a Scotchpad with water, dulling everything while scrubbing the amine blush off. Then when needed I sand it more with longboard and wash with water. At that point I treat it the same as 545. Do not touch it, do not use anything that can contaminate it, no compressed air, no acetone. I do use T0008 but only if there has been too much time in between or I suspect contamination. I use tack cloths from Awlgrip. Clean the roller and brush. The roller I clean with 3M blue tape, the brush with brushing reducer.


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