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Old 11-07-2011, 13:17   #16
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

Add up the ancilliary costs, the entropy of time and money which havent been taken into account, the detailed number of man hours to complete each task (time is money)...its going to take longer and be much more expensive than your 70k.

My first basic is that if the major systems of the boat are in dire need, ain't worth it - hull, engine, standing rigging for example.

My second basic is that if the boat is un-sailable at start, probably ain't worth it (unless its a small identifiable fix e.g. sail repair; another anchor etc)

All other repairs can be delt with over time
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Old 11-07-2011, 13:22   #17
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

Even if you buy a $70k boat it will not be perfect, or possibly the way you want it. A $70k boat is not new by any means.
I'm 59, been working on an old junker for 3 years-still working on it. I love the project, and the boat, and will never be completely done with it. Like someone else said - old house. You've got to love the proiect and not get discouraged when the unexpected shows up, and it will. My boat is 5 hours away I drive there almost every weekend, do a day and a half work and drive home. On my drive home we are planning the next weekend. We just completed an unexpected motor mount replacement that turned into starter, alternator, voltage regulator and galley sink upgrade, so the projects certainly do grow.It will keep ya young and full of piss and vinegar.
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Old 11-07-2011, 13:43   #18
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

We've done the spreadsheet of costs, time, labor in hours and realize the unexpected should be expected!
The labor looks overwhelming, the costs doable but intimidating, however we do realize that we could go buy a 70k boat and need to put another 20k into her also. The survey values her at 40k with new engine and railings and other items which means we already losing.
Darn it!
This is the first one we've found after 2 years that we both like and ticks most of the boxes. That part is hard.
Salty, I agree with your major systems theory, it didn't initially need an engine...lol... it wasn't winterized properly and the cylinders are rusted now.
I appreciate hearing everyone's opinions and choices.
5 hours away is hard drive every weekend, I feel for you!
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Old 11-07-2011, 13:48   #19
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

ohh I love it! This boat will carry me around the world. I will know her systems because I will have built all of them.
It isn't always the money. the point is you have to love to do the work. You often hear - by sailors "it not the destination its the journey" that holds true for the boat fixin too.
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Old 11-07-2011, 13:57   #20
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

What exactly are you planning to do with this boat? Many people end up buying the toughest bluewater crusier with every piece of equetment on it and rarely leave the ICW. My standards have changed I plan to sail from Lake Simcoe (in Ontario) through the trent system and the Erie Canal,ICW and the Bahamas the boat I am looking at is an Ontario 32 built very strong has crossed oceans many times and can be had for 30-40K ready to go. It is very roomy and stable AND at a reasoable price.
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Old 11-07-2011, 14:17   #21
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

We have plans to sail the S. Pacific in a few years. For a decade or more. It would be another LONG post to go into our criteria and type of boat but very similar to SaltyMonkey's list of potentials. Unfortunately we've found that that the east coast has more options for us then where we currently live in the PNW.
Grass is always greener I guess. Thanks for your thoughts!
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Old 11-07-2011, 14:28   #22
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

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Originally Posted by ShayW View Post
The survey values her at 40k with new engine and railings and other items which means we already losing.
Darn it!
If she is a "keeper" (5 -10 years) and you do intend to use her for extended voyaging away from home port I would consider that buying her with a non-working engine to be a big plus ,

As even though from day 1 the numbers do not stack up (they can't - you have turned a brand new engine into a s/h engine - for someone else) you will have an engine and installation that will be trouble free for many many years / yours alone to b#gger up from neglect (delete as applicable ).....whereas anything else you buy of a similar vintage (and budget) will likely have the original engine - not to say that will always be a problem, but will always be in the back of your mind. Odds are high (market allowing ) that in 5 years she will be worth the same $40k (with a 5 year old engine) as she would be with a 5 day old one.....pay the money and you get the use out of it, not from paying less and getting someone else's problems.

The best (??!) cost and time saving advice I can give (you seem to have nailed the spreadsheet / plan thing ) is to use the 10 foot rule (It's ok if it looks good from 10 Foot ). Solid, Sound, Clean & Tidy - perfect and ideal are for next year ............Easy to get sucked into trying to turn her into showroom condition, some boats never were ....in any event IMO an older boat suits a certain lived in look (Character ). Also resist the urge to make "improvements", i.e. just live with the fact the Galley is not 110% perfect - for you (these things really add up in time and money).

Oh, and although I like a bit of varnish (apart from the varnishing bit ) - remember that paint is your friend
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Old 11-07-2011, 14:42   #23
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

My vote is in over your heads.

I suspect if you do buy her that some where not to far down the road, when you are more experienced, you will look at her and wonder what you were thinking....

And then it will be too late.

Start with an easy starter...

Get something smaller, less charming, better maintained and ready to go, with only the usual ongoing maintenance issues to deal with.

You can ALWAYS graduate up when you get that experience under your belt and have a better idea of what is involved in the commitment.

Good luck ; -)
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Old 11-07-2011, 14:45   #24
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

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Originally Posted by ShayW View Post
We have plans to sail the S. Pacific in a few years. For a decade or more. !
I agree with David-O-J about a new engine wont break down, but to have that you need new everything, fuel systems etc. often they just change out the big bit, dont they?

If you are going to work on it for 10 months - say 1 year. Thats 10% of your cruising life. Why waste 10%?
if you are 65 now and the average life expectancy now for someone born in your year (ie not the advertised life expecancy of kids now) is say 80 max. You only have 15 years. Again, if you wish to have one of those with the frustrations of boat re-building then do it.

I retired at 48 because every year I have left is vital to me.

Not being stupid about it, but what is your life expectancy? I don't want to know, but do you? http://gosset.wharton.upenn.edu/mort.../CalcForm.html
Does it form then part of your plan? (Also ment for others who read this thread.)
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Old 11-07-2011, 14:50   #25
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

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No, I see what it is.... I just flicked that boat type on Google. Its a full keel twin mast thing.


People who like those sort of boats don't listen to people like me.

So I bow and exit....
Sure we do Mark, about everythign except the proper length of a keel and the proper number of masts.
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Old 11-07-2011, 15:03   #26
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

I would move on to a boat that can be sea-trialled right now! There are plenty of good used boats in the 70K range. Look at Morgan 38's. (382, 383 etc.) These are Brewer designs and sail very well and fairly well built. Some are very well equipped.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982.../United-States

As for the Endurance 35, many were home built and I know of some that were built in Spain. Who built the one you're looking at?
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Old 11-07-2011, 15:18   #27
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

I agree with those who feel you should just get a better boat to start with! And I'm going to just leave it at that because the whole thing is probably a listening to your heart and trying to get your brain to agree thing (good luck with that).
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Old 11-07-2011, 15:32   #28
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Re: Are We in Over Our Heads, or Just Ignorant About What it Takes to Refit ?

This Endurance was built by the DeKleer Bros in BC. Solid built fiberglass, decks in great condition, new glassed over joint and new toe rail. Tanks large but fuel tanks are steel and supposedly inspected 2 years ago before they rebuilt the salon. Now fuel tanks are built in with no inspection ports and would take a torch to remove. Confident about the boat, just not as much so about the time and monies to finish her. Building new railings and bowsprit would include upgraded anchor rollers, etc. Rigging is in great condition but can't step the mast without the new bow pulpit and bowsprit.
One second I'm thinking this is such a good opportunity to repower, custom railings, etc, next second I'm stressing about the list of projects.
If we bought a boat without updated equipment, wouldn't we be replacing/repairing same some time in the next 10 years anyway? Probably in some inconvienent port half way across the world? Would we be kicking ourselves for getting lazy or grateful that we took the time to do a major refit?
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Old 11-07-2011, 16:53   #29
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If you start running now...

If you start running now then you should be just about far enough away before nostalgia for a good old boat strikes again.

If you had posted photos then we could have given better advice, however I think it would have still been the same.

I know they're not a good old boat but the Moorings Brokerage has Beneteau Oceanis 373's and 393's coming out of their ears, many listing under $100k. For very little more than your costing on this boat you could fly to the BVI's fix a few problems on a 2005/6 boat and be cruising at the start of the next season.

If money is a issue then they have Sun Oddesy 35's together with Beneteau 343's which look to be bigger than the Endurance 35.

You don't say what your plans are but if its just the Caribbean then they have Beneteau 323's that would be very little smaller than your heats' desire that would come inside your budget.

You would need to check the CE ratings and to get a survey done to ensure that any of these boats are suitable for your intended purpose.

As one who has spent almost 5 years rebuilding a project boat and who will have almost 6 years before I sail off (if ever) I'd guess you're looking at 3 years of heart and back breaking work to come up with a boat that may end up being worth only half the monetary cost of what you put into her.

Start running now...
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Old 11-07-2011, 17:16   #30
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Re: If you start running now...

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Originally Posted by Boracay View Post
If you start running now then you should be just about far enough away before nostalgia for a good old boat strikes again.

If you had posted photos then we could have given better advice, however I think it would have still been the same.

I know they're not a good old boat but the Moorings Brokerage has Beneteau Oceanis 373's and 393's coming out of their ears, many listing under $100k. For very little more than your costing on this boat you could fly to the BVI's fix a few problems on a 2005/6 boat and be cruising at the start of the next season.

If money is a issue then they have Sun Oddesy 35's together with Beneteau 343's which look to be bigger than the Endurance 35.

You don't say what your plans are but if its just the Caribbean then they have Beneteau 323's that would be very little smaller than your heats' desire that would come inside your budget.

You would need to check the CE ratings and to get a survey done to ensure that any of these boats are suitable for your intended purpose.

As one who has spent almost 5 years rebuilding a project boat and who will have almost 6 years before I sail off (if ever) I'd guess you're looking at 3 years of heart and back breaking work to come up with a boat that may end up being worth only half the monetary cost of what you put into her.

Start running now...
There is SO Much good advice in this post. After 3 re-builds, occupying 11 yrs, I really wonder where my head was at the time.
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