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Old 24-08-2014, 12:35   #16
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
There are no government-imposed limitations for copper or zinc content in anti fouling paint. Not in this country anyway.
So ... maybe it's simply a matter of cost. Copper is expensive. I suppose that's the obvious reason :-)
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Old 24-08-2014, 12:38   #17
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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There are no government-imposed limitations for copper or zinc content in anti fouling paint. Not in this country anyway.
I don't know much about it, but I keep seeing people post about not being able to get paints that they used to be able to get, especially in CA, so they go to Ensenada to get a supposedly better paint applied.

Are they wrong, or is there some other reason the stronger paints are not available in some places?
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Old 24-08-2014, 12:44   #18
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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There are no government-imposed limitations for copper or zinc content in anti fouling paint. Not in this country anyway.
But there will be in Washington state in a few years.
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Old 24-08-2014, 12:45   #19
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
I don't know much about it, but I keep seeing people post about not being able to get paints that they used to be able to get, especially in CA, so they go to Ensenada to get a supposedly better paint applied.

Are they wrong, or is there some other reason the stronger paints are not available in some places?
Depends upon what type of paint you are referring to. Tributyl tin paints have been banned worldwide. Not all countries have ratified the treaty, so you can still get it in some places. Other paints are restricted (in Southern California at least) due to VOC regulations. But none of it has anything to do with copper content.
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Old 24-08-2014, 12:47   #20
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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But there will be in Washington state in a few years.
Well, in Washington, all copper-based paints will be phased out. Not a case of reducing the content in any particular product, but rather the elimination of the entire type of paint, like it was for tin.
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Old 24-08-2014, 13:28   #21
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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Just like house paint. The government has a maximum on mildewcide for a gallon of paint. But, ...
Metaphors aside, I was asking the person (or anyone else) who stated "paint companies put in what the government allows them to" to cite the relevant prohibition(s).

I am aware of no paint mfg which formulates paint specific to every city, country or state regulation or for marketing therein.

It is stating the obvious that pesticides are Federally regulated rather than locally but copper is not a pesticide nor am I aware of any regulation limiting it's formulation in paint; application may be another matter.
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Old 24-08-2014, 13:52   #22
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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Metaphors aside, I was asking the person (or anyone else) who stated "paint companies put in what the government allows them to" to cite the relevant prohibition(s).

I am aware of no paint mfg which formulates paint specific to every city, country or state regulation or for marketing therein.

It is stating the obvious that pesticides are Federally regulated rather than locally but copper is not a pesticide nor am I aware of any regulation limiting it's formulation in paint; application may be another matter.
Yes, I'm speculating on the cost and availability issue, suggesting there may be some similarities between the pesticide issues for regular paint and the (probably upcoming) restrictions for antifouling paint. I see that California has house bill AB 425 which would authorize the investigation, and begin study of mitigation relative to anti-fouling. So, it's coming to a theatre near you.

Some years ago I spent a (very) short time in the paint field. I was selling it, and learned just enough to be dangerous. Anyway, I had access to company people, who at the time were trying to reformulate everything to appease the EPA relative to oil based paints an VOCs. The government had something called "Exceedance fees" which were later replaced by credit and trading system (like carbon). Anyway, the idea was that the companies could continue to sell higher VOC stuff instead of a complete shutdown of the paint type, so long as they hit certain targets for average reduction (I believe this was related to volume sold, but not sure anymore). Anyway, they paid exceedance fees which drove up the cost of the product, and forced (eventually) completely new formulations.

I suspect maybe the paint companies are A) already in voluntary process for reduction, or B) preparing for legislation they know is coming. That may be the reason for the price and content changes in the products, in a manner very similar to oil base paint phaseout.
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Old 24-08-2014, 14:16   #23
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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I suspect maybe the paint companies are A) already in voluntary process for reduction, or B) preparing for legislation they know is coming. That may be the reason for the price and content changes in the products, in a manner very similar to oil base paint phaseout.
In California, the Department of Pesticide Regulation informed all anti fouling paint manufacturers selling products using a variety of copper compounds as a biocide that these products would undergo reevaluation, to determine if these products were contributing to waterway copper loading that was in excess of the California Toxics Rule. In response, some manufacturers began reformulating their products with less copper but processing that copper in a new way so as to make less work better. Pettit Trinidad is an example of this. Whereas Trinidad SR (for example) previously had a copper content of over 70%, it now has a copper content of about 60%.

But the paint manufacturers (and their lobbying group, the American Coatings Association) are no dummies and in a brilliant fox-guarding-the-henhouse move, got the DPR to allow them to conduct a study of the copper contribution that in-water hull cleaning is responsible for. Even though at least three previous studies have shown that about 5% of the copper that enters the water column from anti fouling paint comes from in-water hull cleaning activities, the ACA study showed that number to be about 50%! The paint manufacturers were with one stroke, able to show that their products were not only less polluting than previously thought, but that another group entirely (hull cleaners) were the real culprits in the copper pollution issue.

My point being, that when state legislators and regulatory agencies talk about mitigation, the multinational corporations that make anti fouling paint are going to do what they can to make sure that "mitigation" means your ability to have your boat cleaned in its slip or at its mooring is reduced or eliminated. The banning of copper-based paints in California is no longer really being discussed at the state level.
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Old 24-08-2014, 14:25   #24
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

Hadn't heard about the hull cleaning study. Wonder if this has been heard in Washington State? :-)

My previous post was posted as a reply to the wrong message. That is why my response didn't match the question. Comes from trying to use a Lynx text mode browser on CF!
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Old 24-08-2014, 19:27   #25
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

"Since bottom paint continues to have less and less copper,...."
No it doesn't. Conventional bottom paints have as much copper as they always had.
Trinidad red has 75% cuprous oxide. If adding powdered copper would make the paint more effective, paint companies would do it, and brag about it.
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Old 24-08-2014, 19:57   #26
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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Conventional bottom paints have as much copper as they always had.
Trinidad red has 75% cuprous oxide.
Tks HopCar... Like using Trinidad and didn't realize they still had a high copper hard paint (Trinidad 75 Pro) Nice to see the same 75% copper in the black as well. Lots of 3rd world harbors not so clean as the U.S. ports, and the black helps hide the inevitable bunker-c line.

Will be switching from Sea-Hawk TropiKote to T-75 for the Sept bottom job, but will go back to Islands 44 when I get back to St Maarten.

Tks again for the heads up.
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Old 24-08-2014, 20:56   #27
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pirate Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

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Look up coppercoat epoxy for a commercial system as you described... Not sure of the efficacy of adding powdered metallic copper to std bottom paint.

Not cheap, but Sea Hawk TropiKote is still 75.8% copper content in all colors. Had to choke on the price, but what I am using for the bottom job next month. Always had luck with Trinidad Red when it was still 60% copper (in the olden days) so figure it will do me for two seasons till I can get back to St Maarten for several gallons of (Slips Into Asbestos Flame Suit) .... Islands 44
I think a certain someone missed this post. I offer a copy here as a public service.
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Old 24-08-2014, 21:15   #28
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

to the OPs question, adding copper powder wont do much. the elemental copper needs to be exposed to deter marine life, binding it up in paint would just seal it off. products like coppercote work because you burnish the surface to expose the copper before you launch.
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Old 24-08-2014, 21:28   #29
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

Some anti fouling paints (like Trinidad "Red") have not not changed formulations, as some here have noted. It is erroneous however, to infer that all anti fouling paints use as much copper as they ever did. This is simply not the case and a glance at the respective Product Data Sheets proves it. Other products have changed their formulations, as is the case with Trinidad SR. Pettit Paints uses what they call "Clean Core" technology to process their copper biocide, again, making less copper work more effectively.

Clean-Core is Pettit’s revolutionary new antifouling technology. It reduces the heavy metals found in traditional bottom paint by up to 50%, while precisely controlling the timed-release of biocide, keeping you well protected.

http://www.pettitpaint.com/fileshare...Technology.pdf
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Old 24-08-2014, 21:46   #30
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Re: Add Powered Copper to Bottom Paint

All this talk of more copper is misleading. You would think that an all copper bottom would be great. Not so at all. You get tons of growth on a copper bottom. Soft build-up and seaweed grow fast on pure copper. It may prevent barnacles and such but that is not everything.
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