Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-11-2015, 15:39   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Boat: Seaward 22
Posts: 91
ABYC Standards on new boats

Are there boats constructed that violates any of the ABYC standards? Meaning what are the most common violated standards? Does anyone have any standards of their own that you wish builders would implement? Are ABYC standards higher than other standards around the world?
__________________

__________________
EllisElectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2015, 17:17   #2
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by EllisElectric View Post
Are there boats constructed that violates any of the ABYC standards?
yes, certainly. Abyc is voluntary. Beneteau, for one follows CE -is required to - and violates some ABYC standards.

Meaning what are the most common violated standards?
not specific enough question. Do you mean in units sold? Sailboats or small power boats, or. . . . .

Does anyone have any standards of their own that you wish builders would implement?
loyds commercial standards + solas

Are ABYC standards higher than other standards around the world?
No
whats your point?
.........
__________________

__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2015, 18:07   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Boat: Seaward 22
Posts: 91
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
whats your point?
.........
My point is to rate builders based on established standards and to learn to most common violations builders make cutting corners.

Quote:
not specific enough question. Do you mean in units sold? Sailboats or small power boats,
Sailboats are the boats I'm referring to
__________________
EllisElectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2015, 18:21   #4
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

For recreational boats ABYC is a recommend standard in the US, but is not code. For light commercial boats (not ships) it is code (Adopted per CFR 46). Recreation boats are covered by CFR 33 in the us and that leaves much to be desired. Other standards in the EU and elsewhere will be different and in many cases better. Least wise to my poor eyes. Though it varies a bit.

I think the EU codes for electrical are probably better, safer then ABYC. They require a GFCI main breaker where ABYC only requires GFCI outlets (I think- she says fingers crossed)

Most of the issues with new boats deals more with build quality then say with code violations or shortcuts. The use of brass ball valves by at least one sailboat manufacturer that need to be replaced within 5 years or so comes to mind. But from an electrical 12V or 120V standpoint they will follow acceptable standards.

Though the 12V panel might be small or not have enough breakers for the extra's, Or wires might only meet minimum circuit capacity requirements.

The danger is what the dreaded previous owner(s) did with the boat. Most used boats have a rats nest of wires run hither in yon. Some have hot and neutral reversed generally around the battery charger. Lots of fun. But a new boat generally should not have too many issues.
__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2015, 19:00   #5
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 2,592
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

I have been going to the Toronto boat show for 20yrs with the specific goal of finding a boat that conforms to
A. Transport Canada Construction Standards For Small Vessels.
and/or
B. ABYC Standards and Technical Information Reports For Small Craft.

I have not found one single boat that met either of these.

note: I mean boats larger than 24' or so.
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2015, 19:03   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Boat: Seaward 22
Posts: 91
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
I have been going to the Toronto boat show for 20yrs with the specific goal of finding a boat that conforms to
A. Transport Canada Construction Standards For Small Vessels.
and/or
B. ABYC Standards and Technical Information Reports For Small Craft.

I have not found one single boat that met either of these.

note: I mean boats larger than 24' or so.
Boatpoker, could you describe some of the cases you observed?
__________________
EllisElectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2015, 19:05   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 1,688
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

I rarely see ELCI main breakers which is now required. but I also rarely see new boats.
__________________
smac999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2015, 19:10   #8
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 2,592
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by EllisElectric View Post
Boatpoker, could you describe some of the cases you observed?
inverters and or chargers mounted directly over batteries.
Non-ignition proof chargers in gasoline engine compartments.
Inverters and/or chargers in unventilated compartments.
Diesel fuel filters without heat shields in engine compartments.
AC wires rated for 220volts on 120volt boats (French)
Stern lights blocked by shape of hull (sugar scoop transom, dinghy davits. stern rail seating etc.).
Tri-lights without bow/stern running lights.
Batteries venting into accomodation spaces.
AC and DC sharing same panels without proper separation.
No chafe protection on propane fuel hose.
Propane solenoid controls behind stove.
No fire port.

There are dozens more if I took the time to make a list.
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2015, 09:24   #9
Marine Service Provider
 
AnchorageGuy's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Wherever the boat is!
Boat: Marine Trader 34DC
Posts: 4,618
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

No one but the extremely wealthy could afford a boat built completely to ABYC Standards. Chuck
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, ICW Hampton Roads To Key West, The Gulf Coast, The Bahamas

The Trawler Beach House
Voyages Of Sea Trek
AnchorageGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2015, 09:51   #10
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
The danger is what the dreaded previous owner(s) did with the boat. Most used boats have a rats nest of wires run hither in yon. Some have hot and neutral reversed generally around the battery charger. Lots of fun. But a new boat generally should not have too many issues.
Very good observation.

My experience (17 years as Catalina 34 International Association Secretary and the last three or four years with the new C355 group), the newer boats are coming with heavier wiring to support increased electrical loads compared to boats of my vintage (1986). Fuses are being installed at the batteries. Basically, they are safer and meet most ABYC recommendations.

But where the boat builders have not been brought into the 21st century is taking the alternator output and routing it to the house bank (getting it off a switch) and installing ACRs or VSRs or relays for the reserve bank, and they're still going out of the factory with non-deep cycle 4D batteries. If they'd at least give knowledgeable owners the options of golf cart batteries and make the damn built-in battery boxes big enough and deep enough for golf carts, they'd help a lot when unknowledgeable owners wisen up. Having a route and a sealable deck opening for solar wiring would help, too.

boatpoker's details are very good, too.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2015, 12:12   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: McMinnville OR
Boat: Cascade 29
Posts: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to windwalkr
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
inverters and or chargers mounted directly over batteries.

AC wires rated for 220volts on 120volt boats (French)

There are dozens more if I took the time to make a list.
Sorry to deviate from the topic a little.. As I am in the process of Wiring a boat, your comment made me curious. I am familiar with American NEC code as it relates to residential and commercial wiring, but what is the difference with 220v and 120v in boats? I tried to google search this, but came up with nothing useful. Do they use 220v coloring? Are the gauges different?

Thanks
__________________
windwalkr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2015, 12:18   #12
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by windwalkr View Post
Sorry to deviate from the topic a little.. As I am in the process of Wiring a boat, your comment made me curious. I am familiar with American NEC code as it relates to residential and commercial wiring, but what is the difference with 220v and 120v in boats? I tried to google search this, but came up with nothing useful. Do they use 220v coloring? Are the gauges different?

Thanks
EU boats are 220V and will have smaller gauge wire compared to 120V US boats. So when someone converts a EU boat's 220V to 120V the existing wiring would then be undersized for the circuit.
__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2015, 12:19   #13
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 2,592
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by windwalkr View Post
Sorry to deviate from the topic a little.. As I am in the process of Wiring a boat, your comment made me curious. I am familiar with American NEC code as it relates to residential and commercial wiring, but what is the difference with 220v and 120v in boats? I tried to google search this, but came up with nothing useful. Do they use 220v coloring? Are the gauges different?

Thanks
220v uses lighter gauge wire (remember ... voltage up-current down). 120v needs a heavier gauge due to the higher current. Many (most ?) French boats were built for 220v and when shipped to NA all they did was change the inlets to 30amp/120v while leaving the thinner wire...... not a healthy thing to do.
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2015, 12:29   #14
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
220v uses lighter gauge wire (remember ... voltage up-current down). 120v needs a heavier gauge due to the higher current. Many (most ?) French boats were built for 220v and when shipped to NA all they did was change the inlets to 30amp/120v while leaving the thinner wire...... not a healthy thing to do.
I'm not sure about this higher current comment. It appears that for the same current, the wire has to be bigger for 120V.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2015, 12:31   #15
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 2,592
Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
I'm not sure about this higher current comment. It appears that for the same current, the wire has to be bigger for 120V.
Another way of saying the same thing ...pretty basic electrical theory ... the higher the voltage, the lower the current and vice versa.
__________________

__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ABYC Standards Applicability Question Capt Gary Boat Ownership & Making a Living 7 09-05-2013 07:11
ABYC Standards clsailor Our Community 2 13-10-2011 19:40
ABYC Standards toocool General Sailing Forum 7 10-12-2008 21:00
ABYC Standards (On-Line) GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 21-07-2008 02:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.