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Old 17-11-2015, 12:45   #16
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Pretty much, I agree. I guess it all depends on which end one starts from: the end appliance or the service.

Two asides of the same coin.

Good one.
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Old 17-11-2015, 13:19   #17
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Do they use 220v coloring?

I believe I heard the color of wiring is an issue. DC uses black and red and AC using any color other than black or red. Is this true or what colors does AC use?
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Old 17-11-2015, 13:23   #18
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by EllisElectric View Post
Do they use 220v coloring?

I believe I heard the color of wiring is an issue. DC uses black and red and AC using any color other than black or red. Is this true or what colors does AC use?
If you wire to ABYC standards .... DC uses many colours depending on what they feed.

AC uses white for neutral, black for hot and green for ground
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Old 17-11-2015, 13:38   #19
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

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If you wire to ABYC standards .... DC uses many colours depending on what they feed.

AC uses white for neutral, black for hot and green for ground
The bilge pump uses brown I believe, could be wrong. Also on 220 AC are both hots black?
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Old 17-11-2015, 14:16   #20
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Direct Current Color Codes: From ABYC E-11 Table XIV and Table XV.

Green DC Grounding Conductor Bonding Wires (insulated)
Yellow or Black DC Negative Conductor Negative Mains
Red DC Positive Positive Mains
Yellow/Red Starting Circuit Starting Switch to Solenoid
Brown/Yellow Bilge Blowers Fuse or Switch to Blower
Dark Gray Navigation Lights Circuit Breakers or Switch To Lights
Dark Gray Tachometer Tachometer Gauges and Senders
Brown Generator Armature Generator Armature to Regulator
Brown Alternator Charge Light Generator Terminal or Alternator Aux Terminal to Regulator
Brown Pumps Circuit Breakers or Switch to Pumps
Orange Accessory Feed Amp Mtr to Alt or Gen Output & Acc Circuit Breaker & Switches
Orange Common Feed Distribution Panels To Accessory Switches
Purple Ignition Ignition Switch to Coil & Electrical Instrument
Purple Instrument Feed Distribution Panel To Electrical Instruments
Purple Main Power Feed Positive Mains (particularly un-fused)
Dark Blue Cabin and Instruments Circuit Breakers or Switch to Lights
Light Blue Oil Pressure Oil Pressure Gauges & Senders
Tan Water Temp Water Temp To Sender To Gauge
Pink Fuel Gauge Fuel Gauge Sender to Gauge
Green/stripe Tilt Down/Trim in Tilt and Trim Circuits
Blue/Stripe Tilt Up/Trim Out Tilt and Trim Circuits

Alternating Current: Wiring Color Codes

Black: Hot: An ungrounded current carrying conductor. This is the hot side of the system.

White: Shore Grounded Neutral A current carrying conductor maintained at ground (Earth) potential.

Green or Green with Yellow Stripe: Grounding Conductor. Used as a path to ground if there is a ground fault in the system

Red: Hot: An ungrounded current carrying conductor in 120/240 volt systems.
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Old 17-11-2015, 14:52   #21
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson
I'm not sure about this higher current comment. It appears that for the same current, the wire has to be bigger for 120V

Not the same thing, current dictates gauge, voltage determines insulation.
If a yacht in the 6 figure range scrimps on the gauge, makes you wonder what else they went cheap on.


BTW, back in the early '80s, there must have been an over abundance of brown 14 ga wire in Taiwan.
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Old 18-11-2015, 04:20   #22
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

I love Cruisers Forum. I will be armed with information when I finally buy a 40ft sailing catamaran.....df
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Old 18-11-2015, 05:49   #23
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
I'm not sure about this higher current comment. It appears that for the same current, the wire has to be bigger for 120V.
An Ampere (or amp) is the unit of electrical current.
A Watt is a unit of power, defined as the current flow of one ampere with voltage of one volt.
The power in watts is equal to the current in amps times the voltage in volts: P = A x V
Hence, for the same POWER, the Amperage at 120 Volt will be twice that of the Amperage at 240 Volt. So, since wire size is determined by Amperage, for the same POWER, the wire has to be bigger at 120V, than for 240V.
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Old 18-11-2015, 07:52   #24
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

ABYC encompasses a lot more that just electrical standards for boats. The biggest "issue" I see with new boats at boat shows is the regular use of NPT ball valves screwed directly to a NPS threaded thruhull. Only a couple of threads stand between you and seawater flooding in! Often with very small backing plates too!
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Old 18-11-2015, 08:17   #25
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

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Are there boats constructed that violates any of the ABYC standards? Meaning what are the most common violated standards? Does anyone have any standards of their own that you wish builders would implement? Are ABYC standards higher than other standards around the world?
Are there any recreational sailboats that completely adhere to ABYC standards? No. (easier question to answer)

Standards for marine vessels are applicable to larger vessels. Think commercial and military.

Most of the standards like ANEP77, Lloyds, German, etc only apply to large vessels. Other standards relate to environmental and health. The only grp navy ships I've dealt with are minesweepers. They are non compliant with most big ships standards.

Funnily enough on Navy ships the most dangerous non combat system is the chip fryer. I was a system safety consultant for the Australian Navy. Long term exposure to chemicals and nano technology is also a big issue these days.

The most applicable standards relate to small boat handling. CE euro stds are applicable but dont correlate well with ABYC stds. Navy small boat equipment include cranes, ribs, outboards and ppe. These days most navies accept non military CoTS equipment. They may or may not demand an ISO 9xxx quality certification.

The most complete but now obsolete standards are the US and Nato milspecs and milstds. Good luck getting any recreational boat builder to adhere to your personal choice of standards.

Most commercial tenders include a standards inclusion. This will often add 10- 50% to the price.

Acceptance testing to meet performance criteria is more typical these days. Latent defects are often managed by escrow or by contractually agreed penalties.

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Old 18-11-2015, 08:22   #26
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

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I have been going to the Toronto boat show for 20yrs with the specific goal of finding a boat that conforms to
A. Transport Canada Construction Standards For Small Vessels.
and/or
B. ABYC Standards and Technical Information Reports For Small Craft.

I have not found one single boat that met either of these.

note: I mean boats larger than 24' or so.
You never will. Recreational vessels are not required to adhere to any standards. The EU is a little more pedantic.

There are not enough liability, insurance or damage to public property claims for any government to legislate the build quality of recreational vessels.

Sailing is considered a dangerous activity by most non marine insurers.

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Old 18-11-2015, 08:39   #27
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

I think it is useful when thinking about this topic to actually assess where the risk is in the real world. My wife looked at BoatUS's losses and wrote this on their 'top 10 causes of loss': Top 10 BoatUS Marine Insurance Claims - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS

you will note that many of them 'operator error' related and not much related to ABYC type of issues. But #2 on the list is sinking, the majority of which happen at the dock. Of those, interestingly, hoses & hose clamps were a bigger cause than the actually skin fittings and seacocks. Another major cause was blocked scuppers (leaves or ice) - causing the cockpit to fill and either sinking the transom or downflooding the interior. And # 5 was fire/explosion. The fires were mostly caused by faulty wiring - mostly in two areas - in and around the engine and the shore power cord. And explosions were mostly caused by stupid stuff around gasoline refueling.
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Old 18-11-2015, 08:59   #28
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Even for builders who build to ABYC standards you will likely never see 100% compliance..

Here are a few examples.


"ABYC E-11
A battery switch shall be mounted in a readily accessible location as close as practicable to the battery."

ABYC Built Boat- I see no way to even begin to argue that the battery switch is as "as close as practicable to the battery":





The boat brochure claimed CE Cat A and also claimed to be ABYC/NMMA too.. This seacock installation is not actually ABYC compliant.

Boat Claimed ABYC/NMMA Compliance But this is not:


ABYC & UL:
"Materials: The components of a through-hull fitting or sea valve shall be formed of galvanically compatible materials having the strength and resistance to corrosion necessary to withstand intended and abnormal use to which they are likely to be subjected."

Yellow brass and 85-5-5-5 bronze galvanically compatible???


ABYC & UL:
"A seacock shall be securely mounted so that the assembly will withstand a 500 pound (227 Kg) static force applied for 30 seconds to the inboard end of the assembly, without the assembly failing to stop the ingress of water."


Won't pass that part of the standard either, I have physically tested it.......


ABYC & UL
"Threads used in seacock installations shall be compatible (eg. NPT to NPT, NPS to NPS)."


Ball valves are NPT and thru-hulls are NPS......


For the most part I think most builders do a decent job under the standards but they occasionally make glaring blunders that are not even defensible, if you are to claim the boat is built to a particular standard. There are many, many examples of standards violations one can point to but the bottom line is boats, IMHO, are being built in a safer manner than they were 20+ years ago..
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Old 18-11-2015, 09:39   #29
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

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There are many, many examples of standards violations one can point to but the bottom line is boats, IMHO, are being built in a safer manner than they were 20+ years ago..
You have a much better +20 year perspective on systems installation than I do . . . .but I have two reactions to this comment:

(1) Most uninformed buyer would likely assume that if they spent say $300k on a modest size new boat, that it would be built 'properly'. And they would mostly be wrong. That is still somewhat astonishing to me. It's like (but worse than) american made cars back in the '70's. You drove a new one off the lot and it would have a dozen defects. Yea, I know the unit volume of boats is low, but I consider that an 'excuse' for poor practices.

(2) I would say that (very generally) the design/structures are built 'less safe' than they were 20 years ago. They are more vulnerable to both manufacturing errors and to operator errors (rudders, keels, and the basic laminate). And they will 'age' less well (liners and cores). After 10 years of 'normal use' (which can predictably include a couple groundings and a couple hard docking impacts) the boat structure (detached liner, sheared or debonded core, detached bulkheads) could well be a 'write off' (because it costs more to fix than the boat is worth). Now much of this is 'buyer choice' and I can't say the mfg's are necessarily making bad decisions here. But it is a change, which the boating market has not really fully understood.
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Old 18-11-2015, 09:56   #30
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Re: ABYC Standards on new boats

Thanks, Gord, that's what I was trying to say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
An Ampere (or amp) is the unit of electrical current.
A Watt is a unit of power, defined as the current flow of one ampere with voltage of one volt.
The power in watts is equal to the current in amps times the voltage in volts: P = A x V
Hence, for the same POWER, the Amperage at 120 Volt will be twice that of the Amperage at 240 Volt. So, since wire size is determined by Amperage, for the same POWER, the wire has to be bigger at 120V, than for 240V.
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