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Old 25-07-2017, 16:24   #16
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Re: ABYC rule for electrical with fuel lines?

Come on guys, the whole thing is a setup so that ABYC certified electricians can charge $150/hr. for $40/hr. work. There are only two in the entire State of Hawaii.
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Old 25-07-2017, 16:36   #17
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Re: ABYC rule for electrical with fuel lines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschmidt View Post
Come on guys, the whole thing is a setup so that ABYC certified electricians can charge $150/hr. for $40/hr. work. There are only two in the entire State of Hawaii.
R U Sirius? If that's true... I will work there for $130/hr. No - make that $120! Mention CF and you get $10/hr off your first call.

Now I just need someone to sponser me on a visa... And convince the wife.

(also, if anyone thinks they can eke out a living as an independent boat electrician who only bills $40 an hour, anywhere in the US, never mind HI... share your secret)
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Old 25-07-2017, 21:08   #18
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Re: ABYC rule for electrical with fuel lines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschmidt View Post
Come on guys, the whole thing is a setup so that ABYC certified electricians can charge $150/hr. for $40/hr. work. There are only two in the entire State of Hawaii.
ABYC is a not for profit organization. Memberships and hard copy fees pay the bills, so standards can be developed to help ensure builders make safe boats.

Actually, instead of griping, anyone can become an ABYC member for pretty cheap and get access to all standards.

If one isn't willing to even acquire the standards to ensure they do the job right, IMHO for their own safety and the safety of others, they should just set the tools
down.
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Old 26-07-2017, 02:40   #19
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Re: ABYC rule for electrical with fuel lines?

Guys: below is the link to the requested for clarification regarding the specific installation of diesel systems HBYC-H33, this is an on line link as the document is way to large to open here(23 pages)

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/H-33_Diesel_2005.pdf

From a surveyors perspective and looking at the "rule" "for myself" if the wiring is with in a conduit of suitable/recognized type for purpose (ie: electrical approved conduit) and secured correctly then it would be considered as approved installation if along side or in the same cavity, (again class and vessel size /type/purpose comes into play here as the regulations get tougher when you move out of the pleasure use area to any commercial

Many countries in the world now have the rule that over 12 passengers -even non paying- turns your vessel into a charter passenger vessel so the build has to reflect that)(soon you will have to be an Admiral to use a Canoe!!),

To note the ABYC rule for pleasure crafts notes ( ONLY WHERE POSSIBLE!) so again it's not cast in stone,regarding length of fuel line as only 48" dosent really come into play as the rule is trying to prevent a possible ignition source through a shorted wire(with in the loom itself) or caused by a grounding through the fuel line itself (as not all fuel lines are electrically insulated to the engine which would provide a suitable ground path)possibility of fuel lying in/around the cables.

A lot of people dont understand that cables and there sheathing can deteriorate over age and actually quickly go down hill if associated with fuel/oil(now the fuel line dosent have to be leaking it's self the fuel can run down the fuel line from a spill or a priming situation)and thus start the degradation of the electrical line,combined with many installations using non-approved wire for marine situations and or voltage or amp loading,

Full class commercial installations in 2017 are some thing to behold, to say if you have an older vessel and dont meet new rules/regulations(some time /age limits apply) it is more than likely it's cheaper to build a new vessel!

I offer the forgoing only as advice with no preconception, with no legal implications and without prejudice.

Cheers Steve(IIMS Surveyor-Lloyd's accredited)
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Old 26-07-2017, 07:20   #20
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Re: ABYC rule for electrical with fuel lines?

I saw a truck burn up because the fuel and starter cable were run together. The starter cable chafed on the chassis, burned through the fuel line, and the fire was going well withing 30 seconds. It was dusk, and I just happened to notice the sparks flashing from where I was sitting.

The real failing was that they were in the same pass-through.
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Old 26-07-2017, 13:05   #21
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Re: ABYC rule for electrical with fuel lines?

jon-
If you have a personal recreational vessel, there is no mandate that you must follow ABYC recommendations, and your insurer may not be terribly interested in them.
However. I've learned that sparky boomy things are not generally pleasant and try to ensure that they get go boom around me. A burn ward is not a great place to be in.
If I had to run the DC power cables without having a separate conduit for them? I would add extensive chafe protection. One way to do that is by putting them in clear vinyl or Tygon hose, adding it over each or over the pair. Another way is to buy fiberglass or kevlar hose (it is knit hose tubing, not solid) and again, slip that over the wires. Kevlar will give you more chafe protection, but of course the clear tubing allows you to SEE what is inside it. Any type of fabric tubing should also allow better heat dissipation, remember those wires are rated for different capacity when run in an empty space, versus a conduit or engine space.
And the fuses are good, but nowhere near fast enough to stop a spark. Which is all it takes to ruin your day.
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Old 26-07-2017, 13:51   #22
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Re: ABYC rule for electrical with fuel lines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
ABYC is a not for profit organization. Memberships and hard copy fees pay the bills, so standards can be developed to help ensure builders make safe boats.

Actually, instead of griping, anyone can become an ABYC member for pretty cheap and get access to all standards.

If one isn't willing to even acquire the standards to ensure they do the job right, IMHO for their own safety and the safety of others, they should just set the tools
down.
Hence my inquiry! absolutely! you will find few (none) educated arguments about the necessity for standards in any industry.

It is through this forum and the generous contributions of the knowledgeable members that we can access these standards and better yet their experience. AT NO CHARGE!

I do not begrudge them their right to charge for their knowledge and skill. I certainly expect to get paid for my profession.

Refitting my boat is a hobby that I very much enjoy doing I am fortunate to have this resource available to learn and advance my skill set.

If you are not willing to do this than you will be happy to pay them to help or do the work.

Ok rant over!

Jim
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Old 26-07-2017, 14:41   #23
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Re: ABYC rule for electrical with fuel lines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captsteve53 View Post
Guys: below is the link to the requested for clarification regarding the specific installation of diesel systems HBYC-H33, this is an on line link as the document is way to large to open here(23 pages)

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/H-33_Diesel_2005.pdf

From a surveyors perspective and looking at the "rule" "for myself" if the wiring is with in a conduit of suitable/recognized type for purpose (ie: electrical approved conduit) and secured correctly then it would be considered as approved installation if along side or in the same cavity, (again class and vessel size /type/purpose comes into play here as the regulations get tougher when you move out of the pleasure use area to any commercial

Many countries in the world now have the rule that over 12 passengers -even non paying- turns your vessel into a charter passenger vessel so the build has to reflect that)(soon you will have to be an Admiral to use a Canoe!!),

To note the ABYC rule for pleasure crafts notes ( ONLY WHERE POSSIBLE!) so again it's not cast in stone,regarding length of fuel line as only 48" dosent really come into play as the rule is trying to prevent a possible ignition source through a shorted wire(with in the loom itself) or caused by a grounding through the fuel line itself (as not all fuel lines are electrically insulated to the engine which would provide a suitable ground path)possibility of fuel lying in/around the cables.

A lot of people dont understand that cables and there sheathing can deteriorate over age and actually quickly go down hill if associated with fuel/oil(now the fuel line dosent have to be leaking it's self the fuel can run down the fuel line from a spill or a priming situation)and thus start the degradation of the electrical line,combined with many installations using non-approved wire for marine situations and or voltage or amp loading,

Full class commercial installations in 2017 are some thing to behold, to say if you have an older vessel and dont meet new rules/regulations(some time /age limits apply) it is more than likely it's cheaper to build a new vessel!

I offer the forgoing only as advice with no preconception, with no legal implications and without prejudice.

Cheers Steve(IIMS Surveyor-Lloyd's accredited)
Steve
This is quite a read so your synopsis is appreciated. I was planning to run these in separate conduits and call it good but I have decided that the safest course is to create a new chase and make sure that I (or the next owner) don't have a problem down the road.

This is more difficult to do but I guess I knew it was the correct answer in the beginning.

hellosailor
"If you have a personal recreational vessel, there is no mandate that you must follow ABYC recommendations, and your insurer may not be terribly interested in them.
However. I've learned that sparky boomy things are not generally pleasant and try to ensure that they get go boom around me. A burn ward is not a great place to be in.
If I had to run the DC power cables without having a separate conduit for them? I would add extensive chafe protection. One way to do that is by putting them in clear vinyl or Tygon hose, adding it over each or over the pair. Another way is to buy fiberglass or kevlar hose (it is knit hose tubing, not solid) and again, slip that over the wires. Kevlar will give you more chafe protection, but of course the clear tubing allows you to SEE what is inside it. Any type of fabric tubing should also allow better heat dissipation, remember those wires are rated for different capacity when run in an empty space, versus a conduit or engine space.
And the fuses are good, but nowhere near fast enough to stop a spark. Which is all it takes to ruin your day."

Hellosailor, these are good and correct suggestions. I will have some smaller wire in the conduit next to the fuel lines and they are all double sheathed. but I will create a new chase for the #2 wire feed to the panel.

Thank you all again for the excellent feed back!
Jim
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