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Old 03-03-2009, 06:38   #16
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The Canadain Standards, including Section 8 - Electrical:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/EN/...HR/TP1332E.pdf

The requirements of ABYC Standards for Small Craft E–11 AC and DC Electrical Systems on Boats and E–10 Storage Batteries may be met instead of the requirements of sections 8.3 to 8.13.
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:21   #17
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Frequently the ABYC standard is duplicated or paraphrased in [legally enforceable] Coast Guard regulations. For example, ABYC says "Conductors and flexible cords shall be stranded copper according to table XI" which says "Type 1 - solid conductor...shall not be used." ABYC 111.14.2.3. And the Coast Guard says "each conductor must be insulated, stranded copper." Title 33 CFR 183.425a Jan 31, 1977.

OP, there's really no problem here; geat a few good books, like Nigel Calder's Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual International Marine/ Ragged Mountain Press ISBN 0-07-009618-x, Charlie Wing's Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook McGraw Hill ISBN 0-07-144644-3 or Edgar J Beyn's The 12 Volt Doctor's Practical Handbook from Weems & Plath ISBN 1-878797-13-1 These guys know what they are talking about; Calder is on the Electrical Project Technical Committee at ABYC, responsible for section E-11 of the ABYC Standards book "AC and DC Electrical Systems on Boats which I quoted above.

Trust me; You do not want to have to refer to this tome for background reading! Sears never published anything this thick.
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Old 03-03-2009, 13:34   #18
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Having worked on testimony in court. It's not the thick manual - it's the "expert witness". The expert is "qualified" and is allowed to enter an opinion as evidence. Without the "expert" there is no admitance of opinion as evidence.
I am another who has provided expert support to marine litigations and can add to what Pblias says by saying that ABYC has NEVER been mentioned in any of them.

I have also managed the design and builds of new vessels in or destined to a number of countries in the world and NONE of them were required to be built to ABYC - in fact ABYC was NEVER mentioned as an applicable standard in any of their specifications.

I am also not denigrating ABYC and respect the work of the people behind it. But it is not THE BIBLE and there are in fact things in it which limit what are considered appropriate (and in fact very common) practices in rules of far greater standing than it (eg as I mentioned before, those of the classification societies).
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Old 03-03-2009, 14:35   #19
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I am another who has provided expert support to marine litigations and can add to what Pblias says by saying that ABYC has NEVER been mentioned in any of them.

I have also managed the design and builds of new vessels in or destined to a number of countries in the world and NONE of them were required to be built to ABYC - in fact ABYC was NEVER mentioned as an applicable standard in any of their specifications.

I am also not denigrating ABYC and respect the work of the people behind it. But it is not THE BIBLE and there are in fact things in it which limit what are considered appropriate (and in fact very common) practices in rules of far greater standing than it (eg as I mentioned before, those of the classification societies).
ABYC never being mentioned in another country does not surprise me but we were talking about North America. The vast majority of pleasure craft in NA (bigger than dinghies / runabouts) are built by NMMA member builders. These builders put a label on the boats that says "NMMA Certified Using ABYC Stnadards" That label gives grerat weight to those standards in a legal dispute. No production builder in NA uses any classification society standard and would therefore likely be deemed irrelevant in court.

If you are involved with disputes involving classification societies (mega yachts) then you are involved in boats that don't much concern this forum.
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Old 03-03-2009, 15:51   #20
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ABYC never being mentioned in another country does not surprise me but we were talking about North America.
Sorry, I thought that this was an international forum. I live and learn so thanks for pointing out that it is a North American one .

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If you are involved with disputes involving classification societies (mega yachts) then you are involved in boats that don't much concern this forum.
If you were involved in supporting litigation you would be aware of the golden rule that one should never make a claim of another unless you know what the answer is going to be, else you are likely to find you get an answer that you did not want to hear. In this case you have made an incorrect assumption as I have been involved in disputes involving the quality of construction of vessels down to 18 foot being the smallest (in fact I recall two of that length). Also a number in the 30-45 foot range and, as you have assumed, bigger ones too.

Regarding your comment regarding classification rules not being applied to small craft I have seen those rules applied to vessels as small as around 40 foot, for example Lloyd's Special Service Craft rule and the American Bureau of Shipping's Guide for Building and Classing Racing Yachts. It is also quite common for production pleasure boats to be built with classification society hull certificates.

I guess it depends on how sophisticated the circles are that one mixes in as to what ones experiences are.
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Old 03-03-2009, 15:52   #21
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A heck of a lot of sailboats are built in Asia and Europe. In fact. I believe Beneteau and Jenneau are the largest builders in the world. I believe Bene has a US facility but are what are their "build standards"?

I suspect a lot of standards are the same in the above locations as they are in the USA ABYC or the Canadian equivalent.

I suspect that a Swan or a Halberg Rassy is not built to ABYC specs per se but probably the construction meets or exceeds these specs.

So in the end you need to use sound practices which are found in many standards around the world. There is no holy grail yet.
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Old 03-03-2009, 15:52   #22
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So, to the technically savvy, and the legally informed, what regulations and standards DO most insurance companies want their insured boat to conform to? What rules will my surveyor be playing by? How do we play this game without knowing the rules? It's like changing the rules as ya go along when playing strip poker with a date (not that I would EVER do such a thing)
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Old 03-03-2009, 16:17   #23
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Sorry, I thought that this was an international forum. I live and learn so thanks for pointing out that it is a North American one .



If you were involved in supporting litigation you would be aware of the golden rule that one should never make a claim of another unless you know what the answer is going to be, else you are likely to find you get an answer that you did not want to hear. In this case you have made an incorrect assumption as I have been involved in disputes involving the quality of construction of vessels down to 18 foot being the smallest (in fact I recall two of that length). Also a number in the 30-45 foot range and, as you have assumed, bigger ones too.

Regarding your comment regarding classification rules not being applied to small craft I have seen those rules applied to vessels as small as around 40 foot, for example Lloyd's Special Service Craft rule and the American Bureau of Shipping's Guide for Building and Classing Racing Yachts. It is also quite common for production pleasure boats to be built with classification society hull certificates.

I guess it depends on how sophisticated the circles are that one mixes in as to what ones experiences are.
I never said this was a NA forum. but this topic was about NA conditions and again no NA production builder uses any class standards so your point is moot
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Old 03-03-2009, 16:33   #24
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I never said this was a NA forum. but this topic was about NA conditions and again no NA production builder uses any class standards so your point is moot
This is going nowhere so I won't persevere beyond stating the following.

Are you telling me that no naval architect or yacht designer in the USA nor any outside of the USA that designs sail boats or power boats for the USA production builders possesses any copy whatsoever of any classification rule (including ABS) or if they do they never refer to it for use as a guide for some aspect of design. I find that extraordinarily hard to believe .
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Old 03-03-2009, 16:36   #25
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So, to the technically savvy, and the legally informed, what regulations and standards DO most insurance companies want their insured boat to conform to? What rules will my surveyor be playing by? How do we play this game without knowing the rules? It's like changing the rules as ya go along when playing strip poker with a date (not that I would EVER do such a thing)
Its not as complicated as we (I) have made it

Europe - IMO Colregs and CE, Recreational Craft Directives are law and the Europeans enforce it strictly. When this law was introduced it effectively shut NA builders out of the market until they caught up with the rules. Many of the problems US builders had were due not using the metric system eg. their escape hatches did not meet standard because when converted to metric the were about 1/8" undersized.

USA - Colregs and Code of Federal Regulations Title 33 & Title 46 are law. Very few Euro boats (Beneteau, Jeanneau etc.) meet these standards completely but you guys unlike the Europeans don't check them when they are imported.

Canada - IMO Colregs with Cndn. modifications and the Canada Shipping Act 2001 are law. None of the Euro boats and 90% of the American boats meet our standards but so what we don't have anybody checking either.
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Old 03-03-2009, 16:40   #26
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Wow! Better than anchor talk!.

My .2 x .756 Euro says if you are rewireing an older production boat (I believe this is where the tread started) suggested that one might want to rig per the ABYC spec as this is the "Standard" in the North American small boat (under 30m) market but better a good starting point for one who simply wants to re wire a tired, outdated, underserviced, untinned, over expanded electricl system. ABYC is a good point of refference as are so many others.
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Old 03-03-2009, 16:56   #27
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Which in turn brings us full circle back to: How does a normal, not in this business boat owner ever get access to the latest, greatest codes?
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Old 03-03-2009, 16:56   #28
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This is going nowhere so I won't persevere beyond stating the following.

Are you telling me that no naval architect or yacht designer in the USA nor any outside of the USA that designs sail boats or power boats for the USA production builders possesses any copy whatsoever of any classification rule (including ABS) or if they do they never refer to it for use as a guide for some aspect of design. I find that extraordinarily hard to believe .
Whether they have a copy of .....
American Bureau of Shipping's "Rules for Building and Classing Reinforced Plastic Vessels, Notice No1 & No.2"
I have no idea but you are correct they are not applied to PRODUCTION vessels but are widely used in the construction of megayachts in the US. Besides they have ABYC and the CFR's I think thats enough for anybody.

OK I've had enough of this one. I'm outahere American Idol is on soon. Canadian Idol got cancelled .
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Old 03-03-2009, 17:06   #29
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Which in turn brings us full circle back to: How does a normal, not in this business boat owner ever get access to the latest, greatest codes?
As stated earlier you go to the website and give them money.

ABYC store:
Downloadable Standards: American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) Store

Or as others suggested by a book from someone like Calder.

John
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Old 03-03-2009, 17:09   #30
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John, did you LOOK at those prices? C'mon! Thats plain nuts!
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