Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-02-2015, 14:51   #1
Registered User
 
Tscott8201's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: North Florida
Posts: 104
A Few Boat Building Questions

I'm looking into the possibility of building a 40'-50' cruising cat and I know a few on here have attempted such a feat and I had a few questions. First off let me mention a few facts about myself to hopefully weed out some of the more common comments I have been seeing. I am very handy and can fix/build just about anything so skill should not be an issue. I've worked with fiberglass composite and, though I am not certified in any way, I am a decent welder in both steel and aluminum. Finally, I have a 40'x60' workshop next to my home for projects like this. I am quite accustomed to jumping into a project head first and having to plow my way through it all while learning exactly how to do it. So as far as qualifications go, I am fairly confident in my ability to complete such a large undertaking.

Now on to the questions.

1. I've been looking at kits (Fusion, Shcionning, Spirited, Oceanis Etc.) and though I like the head start they represent, it seems a pretty steep price to pay right off the bat. Other than time save, is there any advantage to a kit vs just building from a set of plans?

2. Who sells plans without kits?

3. Is it worth investigating aluminum as a building material in my size range?

Tom
__________________

__________________
Tscott8201 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 15:06   #2
Registered User
 
Matt sachs's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East Tennessee
Boat: 1989 50 ft Roberts
Posts: 859
Images: 18
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

Sounds like an adventure awaits you over the next few years. Im 5 years into my build, and have enjoyed every minute of it. Im knee deep in wiring presently.....Good luck to you.
__________________

__________________
Matt sachs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2015, 15:40   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 337
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

I would ask" why are you building?"


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
brantleychuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2015, 16:09   #4
Registered User
 
d design's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Whangaroa, New Zealand
Posts: 242
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

I think aluminium is ideal for a multihull since it is light and stiff which is great for comfort in lumpy seas. Also aluminium yachts have a very long service life and therefor maintain their value.

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
d design is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2015, 16:30   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 596
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

I would suggest you seriously consider aluminum. But aluminum has to be done right, meaning the right design, the correct type of aluminum, correct build, and the correct welding. A local community college should have a class to teach correct aluminum welding AND get you certified.

The nice thing about aluminum is you can cut it with wood tools, it is light, the hull should go together quickly, and you don't have to paint the out of water part of the hull which saves money. If you like that look.

The Metal Boat Society might be of interest, Welcome to the Metal Boat Society

Later,
Dan
__________________
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2015, 16:37   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

I'm on my sixth home build at the moment,two of which I have circumnavigated with.

at the end of the day......or the beginning in your case you need to decide what you would rather be doing.........,going to bed dog tired covered in fiberglass dust with no end in sight or sitting in an idyllic anchorage on a cheap fixer upper.

best advice if you like boat building,buy someone elses failed project for pennies of the dollar and finish it,there are many if you look around, rather than start from scratch till you have vastly more experience.
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2015, 17:02   #7
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

It is a long drawn-out process if you build one by yourself.
You need a reason to build a boat from scratch, what is yours?
Aluminum is expensive from what I've seen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tscott8201 View Post
I am fairly confident in my ability to complete such a large undertaking.

Now on to the questions.

1. I've been looking at kits (Fusion, Shcionning, Spirited, Oceanis Etc.) and though I like the head start they represent, it seems a pretty steep price to pay right off the bat. Other than time save, is there any advantage to a kit vs just building from a set of plans?

2. Who sells plans without kits?

3. Is it worth investigating aluminum as a building material in my size range?

Tom
__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2015, 17:08   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,454
Images: 69
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tscott8201 View Post
I'm looking into the possibility of building a 40'-50' cruising cat and I know a few on here have attempted such a feat and I had a few questions. First off let me mention a few facts about myself to hopefully weed out some of the more common comments I have been seeing. I am very handy and can fix/build just about anything so skill should not be an issue. I've worked with fiberglass composite and, though I am not certified in any way, I am a decent welder in both steel and aluminum. Finally, I have a 40'x60' workshop next to my home for projects like this. I am quite accustomed to jumping into a project head first and having to plow my way through it all while learning exactly how to do it. So as far as qualifications go, I am fairly confident in my ability to complete such a large undertaking.

Now on to the questions.

1. I've been looking at kits (Fusion, Shcionning, Spirited, Oceanis Etc.) and though I like the head start they represent, it seems a pretty steep price to pay right off the bat. Other than time save, is there any advantage to a kit vs just building from a set of plans?

2. Who sells plans without kits?

3. Is it worth investigating aluminum as a building material in my size range?

Tom
IMO the Duflex kits - Schionning Spirited Oram etc, represent good value. Duflex seems very expensive on first thought, but once you consider the cost of core materials, glass and epoxy, all the consumables involved in vacuum bagging or infusion, the value is reasonable.

The head start is significant, and the material itself is excellent to work with, incredibly light and strong.

Aluminium is certainly viable in this size of boat too. But IMO it will take many more hours to build and the result will almost certainly be a heavier boat.

Plenty of good designers sell plans without kits. Roger Hill, Richard Wood, Dudley Dix, Robin Chamberlin, Peter Snell to name just a few.

For a few pics on the building our Duflex boat, have a look here: Member Galleries - Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery

IO it's something well worth doing, although there will be plenty of people who will say "you can't". What they really mean is "I can't".
__________________
44'cruisingcat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2015, 07:52   #9
Registered User
 
Tscott8201's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: North Florida
Posts: 104
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
IMO the Duflex kits - Schionning Spirited Oram etc, represent good value. Duflex seems very expensive on first thought, but once you consider the cost of core materials, glass and epoxy, all the consumables involved in vacuum bagging or infusion, the value is reasonable.

The head start is significant, and the material itself is excellent to work with, incredibly light and strong.

Aluminium is certainly viable in this size of boat too. But IMO it will take many more hours to build and the result will almost certainly be a heavier boat.

Plenty of good designers sell plans without kits. Roger Hill, Richard Wood, Dudley Dix, Robin Chamberlin, Peter Snell to name just a few.

For a few pics on the building our Duflex boat, have a look here: Member Galleries - Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery

IO it's something well worth doing, although there will be plenty of people who will say "you can't". What they really mean is "I can't".
44'crusingcat I am curious how you got that beast to the water? One of my main concerns with home building is the ability to transport the boat to the water. The only way I would consider the build is if I could work on it at home. If I had to travel to my build I would never get it done.

Tom
__________________
Tscott8201 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2015, 11:34   #10
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

You have to trailer it to the ocean. Call your local transport companies and ask what it will cost to transport a 45ft long, 25ft wide 10 ton boat from your location to a marina. I looked at a 45ft backyard cat and it was about $10,000 to transport it about 20 miles to the ocean.
If the boat costs $200,000 this expense isn't much.
If the boat cost $25k (like mine will), that cost is too much, so mine is being built 100 ft from the water and will cost almost nothing to move it.
__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2015, 14:25   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,454
Images: 69
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tscott8201 View Post
44'crusingcat I am curious how you got that beast to the water? One of my main concerns with home building is the ability to transport the boat to the water. The only way I would consider the build is if I could work on it at home. If I had to travel to my build I would never get it done.

Tom
We lived only 2 km away from a boat ramp in a very quiet area. We were able to borrow a trailer that had been made from a truck chassis for moving cats, and towed it to the boat ramp with a Nissan Patrol.

Did this in the small hours of the morning.

If you have far to go, a lot of people have good success with house moving companies. (Not removalists, but companies that actually move entire houses)

But yes, if you have to move it far, and need the whole police escort, road closure show, it can cost a lot.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2015, 14:31   #12
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tasmania
Boat: VandeStadt IOR 40' - Insatiable
Posts: 2,317
Images: 91
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

Build a boat if you want to build a boat, but in the long run it will have been cheaper to have bought one, even a brand new one.
__________________
Weyalan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2015, 14:50   #13
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,454
Images: 69
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
Build a boat if you want to build a boat, but in the long run it will have been cheaper to have bought one, even a brand new one.
I don't agree. My boat cost $200 k to build. I'd like to see the brand new 44 foot cat you can buy for $200k. I've also been advised, by a reputable broker that after 5 years of use I could still sell my boat for almost double what it cost.

Prior to building this I was looking at building a Martz 46 monohull. Would have cost around $275k to build. Any brand new, centre cockpit 46 foot mono's around for less than $275k? Second hand Martz 46 es sell for very good prices too.

Also, from what I've seen, the quality of construction (if not the finishing) of most home-built boats is far superior to most production boats. Fully glassed in bulkheads, numerous sealed buoyancy chambers, all tinned wiring etc, are pretty much the norm for a home build, but not so much in boats built for profit.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2015, 15:42   #14
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I don't agree. My boat cost $200 k to build. I'd like to see the brand new 44 foot cat you can buy for $200k. I've also been advised, by a reputable broker that after 5 years of use I could still sell my boat for almost double what it cost.

Prior to building this I was looking at building a Martz 46 monohull. Would have cost around $275k to build. Any brand new, centre cockpit 46 foot mono's around for less than $275k? Second hand Martz 46 es sell for very good prices too.

Also, from what I've seen, the quality of construction (if not the finishing) of most home-built boats is far superior to most production boats. Fully glassed in bulkheads, numerous sealed buoyancy chambers, all tinned wiring etc, are pretty much the norm for a home build, but not so much in boats built for profit.



Does that 200k figure (nice round number) include paying yourself a fair wage for your own time, ie what you'd make if you did something more profitable with that time? In other words, if someone else asked you to build that boat for them, your bill to that person would be 200k all in? I doubt it. I think you are leaving out a couple of thousand hours of labor there (at least). Does it also include all systems, including sails and rig? Don't see how it could.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2015, 15:58   #15
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: A Few Boat Building Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post

Plenty of good designers sell plans without kits. Roger Hill, Richard Wood, Dudley Dix, Robin Chamberlin, Peter Snell to name just a few.
None of them to my knowledge have a design close to this size. And Richard Woods I know won't design one for a home build. He considers the likelyhood of a vessel this size ever being completed by a home builder to bother with.

Keep in mind that the hull itself is only 20% of the cost of a completed boat. The majority of the cost is in the systems and labor to instal them. This may be 30% for a multihull, but a huge percentage of the cost isn't in the hull, but in everything else.

A company like Lagoon buys pallets of winches at deep discounts (40-50% off retail) you will be buying two at full price. They take deliveries of masts by the truck, you will be buying a single one, and having to ship it alone. How much of a discount do you think a manufacturer gets on engines, rigging, wire, transmissions, batteries... It all adds up, and adds to the cost of the finished boat. Of course you get to ignore labor costs, but it will consume years of your life, even if working on it full time.

Realistically figure between 15-20,000 man hours to build a 40' catamaran, and double this for a 50' cat. A full time job 40hr/week 50weeks/yr is 2,000 hours. So figure it will take 7-10 years of full time work to build a 40' and 15-20 years to build a 50'.

As for aluminium... It's possible. But you will need to have a designer draw it up from scratch. The boat will be much heavier that a fiberglass-foam hull, though it may take less time to build. Depends on how good you are working with aluminium, and if you have rolling machinery capable of dealing with huge sections of aluminium plate.


In short, if you want to build a boat then build a boat. If you want to sail a boat then buy one.
__________________

__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wood That Won't Warp For Building Entire Kitchen Counter, and Advice On Building Hatc albergsailor Monohull Sailboats 30 25-09-2012 10:15
Living Aboard during the week (a few questions) mow2000 Liveaboard's Forum 14 03-12-2008 15:05
A few questions for a new guy :) Sapper General Sailing Forum 10 29-06-2008 16:27
A few questions about materials. . . Pressure, tension and torque. Italian Taitano Construction, Maintenance & Refit 7 01-05-2008 19:55
A few sailing questions... aignam General Sailing Forum 7 15-02-2008 14:40



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:03.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.