Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-08-2014, 13:04   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Boat: Allied Seawind 30
Posts: 119
7x19 for Standing Rigging

Hello forum! I'm starting to look into replacing the standing rigging on my Allied Seawind 30. I'd like to do galvanized (or maybe stainless) with thimbles and rope clips, but am wondering about the flexibility. Will 1x19 be too stiff to go around a wire rope thimble? I realize 7x19 is not as strong and I'll need a thicker wire rope but thats fine, I'm more concerned with flexibility around the thimble.

Any help or advice or links would be awesome, thanks!
__________________

__________________
Sailor Keddy
http://sailorkeddy.com/
SailorKeddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 13:21   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,006
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: 7x19 for standing rigging

1x18 is too stiff to bend around a typical thimble. If you could find large diameter thimbles, maybe it would work.

You can reinvent the wheel if you want but I'd just go with mechanical terminals like Norseman/StaLok and 1x19. It's easy and quick to do your rig that way, cheaper than having a rigger do it with swages, and won't hurt resale value of the boat.

You might look into synthetic line for rigging. Initial cost is comparable to wire because of the hardware required but replacement is just the cost of the line and your time to splice. It is also way lighter than wire so beneficial for sailing performance. Colligo Marine - Rigging reduced to its elegant essentials. - Colligo Marine - Synthetic Rigging
__________________

__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 13:48   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Boat: Allied Seawind 30
Posts: 119
Re: 7x19 for standing rigging

Yeah, I've thought about the Sta-Lok route and the synthetic one as well. I have a ketch rig with about 15 pieces of standing rigging, so the nuber of sta-lok fittings or hardware for synthetic is really spendy. With as much rigging and hardware my boat will need, I'd really like to make galvanized/stainless work with thimbles/clips.

Know of a source for large thimbles made for 1x19?
__________________
Sailor Keddy
http://sailorkeddy.com/
SailorKeddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 14:07   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 378
Re: 7x19 for standing rigging

If you'd like to do rigging inexpensively I'd suggest you consider using 1x7 EHS galvanized wire. It is about the same strength as 1x19 stainless and is significantly better as regards stretch. It is commonly available because it is the standard for guying power and radio poles and towers. It is commonly believed that this wire is too stiff for forming around thimbles but yes, it is doable. Takes some force to form the eye. The eye can be retained with a swaged sleeve, steel is best. If you get this done at a commercial rigging shop prices will be reasonable.

Paint the completed wires with coal tar epoxy. Then wrap them tightly with a cloth tape and paint it again with the coal tar. Lastly slip a thin wall black plastic slit tube over the wire, as a UV protection, as epoxy doesn't stand up to UV well.

You will end up with rigging that will probably last your lifetime. Far longer lived than stainless. It also, thanks to the plastic cover, will really reduce chafe.

Guys that build Brent Swain's origami boats have been using this approach for a long time now. It is proven. I'd suggest you visit the origami boat building website on Yahoo and search for rigging.
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 17:37   #5
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

Good idea on the 1x7 pauls, must find out more myself. I like Brent Swain's approach to boats, simple, cheap and strong.

Another option is 7x7 galv. Personally I would avoid 7x19 for a bermudan rig. Just too much stretch. 7x7 works and can be bent around a standard thimble and swaged with aluminium swages very cheaply.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 17:46   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 378
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

Yes, Snow Petrel is right, 7x7 can be used too. Its advantage is that it is much more flexible than 1x7 so it is easy to bend around the thimble. Its biggest disadvantage is that it is only available up to 3/8", and breaking strength of 3/8" 7x7 is lower than 1x7 or 1x19. If it is strong enough for your rig it is a good solution. I'd recommend that you use steel swage sleeves instead of aluminum, both for the galvanic match and because the steel swage is stronger. Aluminum does work, but you should use two swage sleeves to compensate for the lower strength. Don't use copper swage sleeves. That is a galvanic disaster.
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 18:02   #7
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

Interesting about your concerns about the aluminium swages. I've never seen any problems with mine, or any other yacht rigged with them. Ive tested them on a testbed and the wire broke! So I'm happy with just one alloy swage. The swaging process does weaken the wire by a small amount due to the hard spot, but you get this with most terminals. Galvanicaly aluminium is closer to the zinc galvanizing. Do the steel ones have a coating of some sort? Im interested because there are some steel socket type swages on the market for 1x19. Cheers
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 18:23   #8
Registered User
 
DumnMad's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Nelson NZ; boat in Brisbane
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,248
Re: 7x19 for standing rigging

+1 for galv wire.

Even if you don't protect the straight parts with anything make sure you protect the bent/stressed parts around the thimble which would corrode first. Even a thick coating of zinc paint would help. Don't use stainless on thimbles because the residual stress in bending makes it vulnerable to crevice corrosion/sudden failure.
__________________
DumnMad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 20:23   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Boat: Allied Seawind 30
Posts: 119
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

So much great info! Thanks!

I think from reading all this I'm leaning towards the 3/8" 7x7 galv with standard sized thimbles and doubling up of aluminum sleeves. Should be plenty strong for my smaller ketch rig.

I talked with Scott and Kitty Kuhner who went around in the 70s in the same model boat, and they replaced their entire standing rigging with galv in New Zealand for about $150. They said they would apply boiled linseed oil about 2-4 times per year and there wasn't a speck of rust to be seen even years after they returned to the states. Seems a little maintenance goes a long way on galv wire rope and it can last quite a long time.
__________________
Sailor Keddy
http://sailorkeddy.com/
SailorKeddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 21:08   #10
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

Should be fine. 8mm 7x7 might well be more than strong enough. Certainly for the mizzen 8mm or even 6mm might be better to save weight aloft. Make sure the thimbles and eyes will fit in your tangs or mast fittings. I used stainless for my forestays to save wear.

Only issue with 7x7 is that its brutal on sails, very sharp. Its worth putting hose over the worst parts
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 21:23   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Boat: Allied Seawind 30
Posts: 119
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

Or maybe some baggywrinkles! I've also always like the looks of the bamboo chafe protection.

Also I found this: http://www.unitedstaging.com/assets/rtdownloads/24.pdf

Take a look at the bottom of page 3. Nicopress recommends "only solid copper sleeves with galv wire". Interesting.
__________________
Sailor Keddy
http://sailorkeddy.com/
SailorKeddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 23:57   #12
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

Interesting. Supports Pauls steel swage advice. This is another brand http://www.talurit.com/webbplats/pro...english_63.asp the tapered ones leave a neater finish. As I said, I've done many thousands o miles offshore with single alloy swages on galv wire with no issues. My parents boat ha had them on for over 30 years with no apparent problems with the swages. The wire is rusty.. And now being replaced, but the swages look fine. Keen to find out the potential issues. Cheers
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2014, 00:28   #13
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,467
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

I bet that there is a lot of galvo wire used on oil rigs... wonder what termination they use? High stresses, lots of salt spray exposure. Anyone know?

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2014, 04:37   #14
Senior Cruiser
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 5,782
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I bet that there is a lot of galvo wire used on oil rigs... wonder what termination they use? High stresses, lots of salt spray exposure. Anyone know?

Jim



Poured steel sockets or steel swages. And I say this as I sit in a heliport in Louisiana waiting to head offshore to a rig.
__________________
Sailmonkey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2014, 11:48   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 378
Re: 7x19 for Standing Rigging

Regarding aluminum swage sleeves, I've read from Brent that he has seen single aluminum swage sleeves slip, so he recommends using two. Like you, I've seen one be successful. I've chalked it up to being a reliability issue where variability in the swaging process is such that most of the aluminum single swages are ok, but occasionally one isn't. Using a second makes the occasional marginal swage fully adequate.

Regarding steel swage sleeves, they are pretty much the industry standard. Obviously very strong. These are not something you swage with a hand tool, they require a commercial swager. A commercial rigging shop will have lots of them. They are not normally plated, just bare steel.

I'd like to recommend coal tar epoxy to you guys. For use in protecting rigging it has several unique properties. First is that, because off the tar component, it is able to bond strongly to surfaces with a small amount of oil. Rigging wire is commonly lubricated and it is almost impossible to remove all of it. Coal tar is also more impermeable to water than standard epoxies. But the big reason to use it is flexibility. Coal tar epoxy is reported to be 10 times more flexible than standard epoxies. This is good on any surface as it allows a thicker buildup without danger of cracking/delamination. But on rigging wire which flexes a lot this is a really good thing.
__________________

__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rigging

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rigging instructions for the standing rigging of the 321 Oceanis anadale1 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 0 20-06-2011 16:52
Re: Rigging, Compression Fittings for Standing Rigging Maineiac_sailor Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 2 26-01-2011 08:30
Synthetic standing rigging roblanford Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 33 31-12-2008 21:11
Standing Rigging Bill Balme Construction, Maintenance & Refit 8 25-11-2005 05:37
Standing Rigging Pa La O La Multihull Sailboats 6 28-07-2005 13:50



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:35.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.