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Old 20-09-2015, 15:32   #16
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

Thank you all for the advice & support, it's very much appreciated. I'll reply to the points and questions raised shortly but in the meantime I'm just posting a couple of pics. Unfortunately, the only ones I have access to right now are from an advert of her approx 5 years ago, so please bear in mind that sadly she has deteriorated significantly since these photos were taken. I will of course post current pics as soon as possible, likely next weekend, but at least these will give an idea of her lines and where we're [hopefully!] heading...

Cheers,
Neal







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Old 20-09-2015, 15:57   #17
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

Thanks Lepke & Uncivilised for your posts. Re deck:

I'll be removing all of the existing subdeck & deck planks and I'm definitely leaning towards the idea of 2 layers of ply, sealed, epoxy glassed then painted for the reasons already stated in yours and other posts above. My only hesitation is that a boat designer suggested elsewhere that an epoxied ply deck can be bad practice on certain hull structures as it is far too rigid and doesn't allow much movement at deck level, which can result in the tranfer of stresses to, or exagerated movement in, other parts of the structure. Whereas traditional planked decks, with all their inherrent drawbacks, do allow much greater flexibility of the structural components. Does that make sense/is it anything I need to consider? (given your advice I'm assuming obviously not!).

I also read that epoxied ply decks don't allow the boat to "breathe" properly, although I found that mystifying given the goal is a watertight deck!

I'm very likely to go with the ply option, I just want to ensure there's no potential adverse implications I need to consider. Any thoughts/opinions on this per chance?

Cheers,
Neal
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Old 20-09-2015, 16:12   #18
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

Beneteau-500, thank you, I've book-marked both and will be sure to investigate them.

jreiter190, I never even thought about Greenwich, so obvious now you've highlighted it! Thank you.

Daniel, amazing project! We'll definitely have to swap notes :-) I'll check out the recommended books/forum, thank you. And wise words no doubt, about hiring someone who knows what they're doing; I might need more than one by the sounds of things!

Cheers,
Neal
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Old 20-09-2015, 16:40   #19
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

Something like this is a labor of love, and it is a process through which both you and the vessel will change.

I wish you great joy of it--a worthy challenge--and may you be also blessed with good luck.

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Old 20-09-2015, 16:46   #20
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

[I should probably point out that I plan to enlist the services of at least a couple of boat builders to help with this project, but I won't really know the best course of action until she lifted out of the water, the deck removed and a full survey undertaken. The findings of that survey, which is my first priority and which I'll happily share here if appropriate/of interest, will likely dictate the what/where/who/when of this project.]

Actually, the first obstacle is finding a slipway/yard which is not too far away from her current mooring, has available space AND has the lifting/hoisting capacity of at least 70 tonnes*. My first brief search indicates they might be few and far between without going down the pricey commercial route!!!

*the previous owner believes her gross weight is between 60 and 70 tonnes but there is no weight given on the last survey, of which I have a copy, so this might be a complicating factor as above 70 tonnes severely limits yard options, at first glance anyway.

Lokiyawl - 3 inch is the plank measurement given on a previous survey so I assume accurate although I've not measured them. What thickness would they usually be for a boat this size? I believe she was originally built (possibly in Scandinavia somewhere, tbc) for northern lattitude fishing, although I'm not sure why that would make any difference!?

I'll have to reply to other posts/points questions tomorrow as I'm out of time now but thanks again for all the comments, please keep 'em coming :-)

Cheers & fair winds,
Neal
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Old 20-09-2015, 19:16   #21
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

Imagining a wooden boat's bulwark rail when I read the recommendation:
Quote:
then fiberglass the decks with 2.0 RSM and epoxy resin. Roll the cloth up the cabin sides about 50mm and any solid side rails or objects and you won't have any leaks
I was concerned for the potential movement differences between plywood/fiberglass and heavy timber if the boat is subjected to extremes in humidity...then I saw the photos, the bulwark mounted on top timbers, and saw even more problems with working around the wooden frames. Dynel in epoxy would be a more flexible solution than fiberglass cloth. I recently watched the fiberglass repair of a wooden hull that had been sheathed in epoxy/fiberglass; the timber had swelled and split the glass cloth in numerous places. I'd even caution about using Urethane paints on large, wooden areas...in Hawaii I'd stripped and our coated 2" thick cedar cabinsides with Brightside, and by the time we reached Australia, less than a year later, they looked like great-grandma's rocking chair, paint shrunken and cracked by moisture-expanding wood.

When building PILAR's deck, two layers of 1/2" Brunzeel plywood were scarfed, bedded to beams with a flexible sealant as well as between the layers and under the over-laid deck of Port Orford cedar. Which now has a flexible white paint with rubber bits (TREADGRIP) because even the light-colored wood was too hot in the tropics.
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Old 20-09-2015, 19:25   #22
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

P.S. just looked again at the photos and, even though you are going to have to remove the covering board and bulwark to remove the laid deck and plywood subdeck, there will still be the issue of movement and sealing the edges of whatever material you use.

GREAT boat, though! A LOT of work but it looks like an equal amount of joy and satisfaction as it progresses. Wish I were in a position to help with the work--hope you will post more pictures somewhere, so we can follow along from afar.
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Old 21-09-2015, 12:12   #23
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

I am working on rebuilding a 1965 Century Inboard. Not as ambitious a project as yours, but still a wood boat. White oak for the keel, forefoot, stem and frames. Originally 1/2" mahogany bottom and sides that are being changed to 1/8" marine plywood with 3/8" mahogany bonded together with 3M 5200. All bronze fasteners being replaced with Silicon Bronze.

I have been using 'How to Restore Your Wooden Runabout' by Don Danenberg as a guide. Although the book is out of print, there are used copies as well as the electronic version available. His experience includes over 100 restorations ranging from smaller runabouts to 100+ foot boats. Don talks about what causes dry rot and what you need to do to seal wood with CPES, and the advantages of using 5200 over epoxy.

I think you will find this a useful resource. Good luck on your project.
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Old 21-09-2015, 12:43   #24
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

Great project but this is a warning!! 40 years ago a friend and I each built a 4 place aircraft of Sitka Spruce, using one of the the new 2 part epoxies. The highly stressed main frame and rear former to which the low wing and tail wheel were bolted required Ash, but he substituted oak instead. When his was completed and flying well I was to go up for a ride with him but as was my habit I gave the wingtip a good shake and the fuselage did not move.
We found that the glued area seven ft long around the Oak former had completely failed and at the tail former too. The wing was held on by the fairing screws only!!! He made new ash parts and had no more trouble, I flew mine for over 30 yrs and the epoxy coated wood was like new when I sold it recently.
I thought I would be OK with a a more modern epoxy when I built a stout oak dinghy platform for my Trawler about 12 yrs ago. It too fell to pieces soon after! I believe it is something to do with the acid in the Oak after all there is nothing better than vinegar when you want to clean the stuff off your hands.
As to wood generally, consider Egyptian coffins! Proof that it will last for 1000 ys if you can keep it dry!
Cheers Eric Glew.
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Old 21-09-2015, 18:02   #25
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
I know very little about wooden boats except what I've read. My understanding is that green oak can be worked and aged oak is harder than the hubs of hell.

Hopefully some of the wood hulled sailors can give you better advice.

I'm sure that many of us wish you well and would appreciate some pictures from time to time to see what's involved


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
my personal experience with air-dried white oak in the US is it can be bent at room temperature like rubber.


I also noticed others taking on such projects that moving the boat to indoor storage proximate to you is critical to success.
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Old 21-09-2015, 19:07   #26
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

Please keep us updated w/ the progress pictures.
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Old 21-09-2015, 23:30   #27
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

sounds like it would be worth your while buying a mobile bandsaw,can be had on ebay 1000+,then buy in logs.

getting beaching legs and finding a mudberth will go along way towards reducing mooring costs and improving access to work on the hull,most of which you should be able to do between tides.

in Plymouth,looe,mylor there are marine railways that can handle vessels your size for about 100 a day.

fortunately there are quite a few good shipwrights about in the uk,also traditional fasteners ,tar and caulking cotton is readily available,look in "wooden boat" magazine,and online .

fittings are best made up by a blacksmith then sent off for galvanising.

if you are ever in Falmouth pm me and I can probably put you in contact with a few of the local shipwrights.
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Old 22-09-2015, 13:43   #28
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

The comments about a ply, epoxy deck being too stiff could be well founded. It depends on how stiff the other parts of the boat are.
Also, the advice to hire a wooden boat expert is premium wisdom. As is moving the boat to a shop, & or turning the boat into one, for the duration of the repairs. It'll cut your repair time by leagues!

I concur on MDO being cheaper than marine ply, & more than up to the task. It's commonly used for making signs (small billboards), & is very dimensionally stable, & rot resistant, even in abysmal weather conditions. Besides, of course, being far cheaper. Although I do think that it's heavier (denser), if such is a concern. Also it's less friendly about being bent into curves, FYI.
See Buehler's book on boatbuilding for more info on it.

To aid in shop space for your rebuild, you can buy "semi-portable" metal buildings fairly inexpensively, & sell them when the project is done. They make good workshops, & can be set up in very close proximity to the boat. Thus all of your work, as well as your tools are protected from the weather, & "sticky fingers".
Such are pretty indispensible, even in idylic climates. Say, San Diego, for instance. Which has great weather 95% of the time, but you still have dew & some rain to contend with at times.

Also, if you like, there are plenty of inexpensive, DIY, full sized shelters which you can make to cover the entire vessel. Although they're not as sturdy, or lockable, as a true building. With gales, & snow being their biggest enemies. Though, they're still fully viable options.
Modular greenhouses (kit buildings again) are another option too.
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Old 19-10-2015, 07:38   #29
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deck nail nightmare

G'day,

Thank you for the comments.

I'll try to post some pics very soon; this is a big ol' project, likely to take at least a couple of years

She has been lying afloat exposed to the elements and the deck leaks like a colander, so the first task was to jury-rig a giant tent over the entire boat in an effort to keep the weather out & help prevent further deterioration until she can be moved ashore.

The tent is now complete and I've started to remove the interior and tons of rubbish on board (amazing how much useless crap there is!). Once she's on hardstanding I'll have the pleasure of dealing with her deck nails -please see attached pic below. The entire deck has to go, so it inconsequential if planks are damaged/destroyed during this process but I don't imagine these nails will pull easily in any case!!! Someone recommended using a car jack with a custom made claw to pull 'em, which sounds like it would take months

Does anyone have any tips/tricks on pulling these type deck nails? ...out of seasoned oak? Are there specialist tools (other than a standard nail puller) or should I just grind 'em off? Any other comments/thoughts are of course more than welcome/encouraged :-)

Cheers,
Neal
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Old 20-10-2015, 15:22   #30
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Re: 60ft oak on oak restoration project

As a shipwright, my experience was mainly small commercial ships and very large boats... so my way may not be common practice on yachts. My boat was fastened with old square boat nails. It takes a crowbar, about a 6' pipe and somebody younger than me to pull them. They hold really well, but tend to split the ribs. Your ribs are thick enough that you can refasten and leave the nails alone. Silicone bronze would probably be best, but expensive. Stainless steel screws, unless a particular alloy, does not hold up well in underwater planks. If you can put off refastening, do a part of the hull each time you haul out. Try to keep the boat in the water. Keep up the bottom paint and zincs. You can cut or grind off the deck nails.
If your bottom is not leaking and appears to be in good condition, I would avoid letting the hull dry out. Long submerged wood will shrink smaller than original and take a long time to expand. It takes careful caulking after that because if the recaulk is too tight, you can pull out fasteners or pop a plank when the wood eventually swells. Use oakum rather than cotton. It makes a tighter seal when wet. On re-entering the water, an old trick is to force sawdust under water, next to the hull, for small seam leaks (when you know the recaulk is correct). Rock salt in the bilges will preserve the wood. Older commercial boats/ships had salt boxes between the ribs, right under the deck. Water condensing under the deck eventually flows to the sides, thru the boxes and down the planks preserving the ribs, planks and beam ends. Devise a low volume venting system for your bilge to keep it dry, fresh and avoid the boat smell.
My boat has plywood over the original planked deck with fiberglass 2.0 RSM and West System epoxy. 2.0 RSM works better than cloth for decks because it holds more resin and makes a thicker layer. In heavy wear areas I have 2 layers. Don't use polyester resin. It doesn't stick to anything well, even itself. I can take a new poly/cloth layer on clean wood and after it's cured, pull up on the edge and strip the whole deck in one pull.
I haven't seen any problems with plywood over plank decks or directly over beams causing too much stiffness. Fiberglass over plywood over planking is common in commercial fishing boats used often in heavy seas.
This summer I replaced a 17' x 20' section of deck with 2 layers of plywood to 1.25" and 2.0 RSM and about 7 gallons of epoxy. Cost for wood and epoxy was $1400US. Properly cared for, it will outlast me and the next owner. With a big wood boat you should be able to ask for and get a decent discount on all supplies from a volume supplier. I pay $83US/gallon for West epoxy including shipping. Price it there.
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