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Old 07-06-2008, 21:26   #1
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40 ft steel rebuild-A chance of a lifetime- or a lifetime of chance ??

Hi All,

This is my first go at this so if I get it wrong I'm sure someone will put me right.
My name is John and I live down on the Central coast with my partner who I have been trying very hard to infect with the ways of the ocean.( baby steps but getting there !! )
Being a surfer and a water type person all my life I have always had a close affinity with the ocean.
Spent quite a bit ot time around people building yachts back in the late 70's where I was based in Sydney harbour and was always intrigued.Have only ever owned a couple of cabin cruisers but have sailed on a few Beneteaus as a dogs body socially

Now I have a passion for it you couldn't squash with an elephant.No one can convince me that what I have in mind for the next few years is not attainable and there have been a few naysayers-as there always is.
Guess I have to put my hand up and admit I cant stand being told-"you can't do that ".!!

I have been reading threads on this forum and have been buying up/reading all types of books on boatbuilding/welding/design etc ,etc for the last 5 months since I bought my "project boat "My first intention through this forum was to see if I could get some helpful advice but looking deeper into it and reading through the lines I am absolutely amazed by the warmth and good intentions put forward by most of the poeple involved in their replies and advice. Maybe there is a good chance of actually getting to meet some friends to boot as a bonus.

Me- I'm just an average Joe. Plumber by trade but have dabbled in lots of buidling projects/areas of different types so am a little bit handy.I am 52 and not out by a long shot just yet.
Funny side about this is my partner has just started to see the possible benefits in what she originally called my " BRAIN DISCONNECTION PERIOD "when I bought this boat on what she thought was a "whim ".Little did she know that I researched it fairly deeply first.I was forbidden to buy it.
Being a thrillseeker of sorts I did buy it- I knew of the pain was to come but what the heck.

What I would really appreciate is some honest opinion on whether this dream will work so I will list what I think are the most relevant details of the situation then see if the balance of opinion from all of you professionals out there is weighted to positive or negative.

THE GOOD.
1Purchased the 40 steel boat (floating at the time ) for $152.50 on ebay.( and yes I copped the silent treatment/death stares for weeks ).
It has a Yanmar 20 hp motor.
To buy a cradle,crane it out and transport it to the hard was $1400:00.
I have been lucky to be able to get a 20x 30 mtr space in an industrial yard with power ,water etc for $30 per week through a really nice old digger -5 minutes from home.
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Old 07-06-2008, 22:42   #2
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OOOPS!!!!

Hi All,

Apologies but somehow some gremlins sent my first ever thread unfinished.
Sorry if it did any damage to your senses as it stood.
Not real good with computers so have put my dunces cap on and asked the adminstrator to post the full thread if possible. ?
If for some reason you dont get the full story I will be happy to add to this thread so it becomes more sensible and catch up as it goes.

Regards
John.
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Old 07-06-2008, 23:44   #3
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how are your welding skills? I cant remember the name but I did get alot of info from a group of steel boat builders/owners in washington state USA. But these boats rust out from the inside out. They need to be dry inside. Pull out everything you can to look. sand blast as needed. rust proof with por-15 or simular. Paint, paint paint. at the very first sighn of rust, scrape, prime and paint. It is an ever lasting problem. The worst will be the rehab, but you have to be diligent to keep the problems small. I tried it once, after several years I gave up. My hart goes out to you. You have alot of work. Best of luck.
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Old 08-06-2008, 00:06   #4
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Hi Badsanta,

Welding skills ( MIG ) are reasonable.Have a friend who is a marine welder giving me a hand and teaching me at the same time ( Cant work our why I am getting all of the crap jobs though and he gets the good ones.? It's like being an apprentice all over again !! ) Boat has been totally gutted now down to bare bones with no deck or superstructure so I have a good open canvas to work with.Will be sanbalsting inside/outside to an inch of its life.Replating bottom sections of hull with 5mm.
The POR-15 you mention.?That company is based next door to one of my friends warehouses in Sydney.Is it a really good product.?

Realise it will be a lot of work,but it will keep me fit to some extent and out of the pub.
Might be a good stress release.Might NOT ?

Thanks for your advice and wishes.

Regards
John
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Old 08-06-2008, 00:17   #5
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We need more information...

We need more information - photos, designer, hull condition, mast, rigging, sails, engine, tanks, etc.

Having done something similar (see blog) I would suggest stepping back.

Get an overview (interior plans etc.). Before anything else decide if you are going to repower or keep the engine.

I have found the most time consuming part of fitting out to be templating each of the components so think before you rip something out (can it be used to template the replacement? If so label it by location (port or starboard, frame(s) #,top or bottom etc)).

If you do decide to rebuild the interior then a total interior repaint is well worth considering.

Ensuring that all water drains freely to the bilge is a must.

To my way of thinking a steel boat with stainless trim neatly welded on is optimum.
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Old 08-06-2008, 01:00   #6
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Hi Boracay,

Thanks for interest and advice.
Will try to post some photos but they are early days as yet and wont show too much

First,not aboslutley sure of designer but I have had advice it is based on a 40 ft Adams.
No plans with it. As I am going to change the layout of the superstructure I will have it drawn up as surveyed when I am finished
Hull is in fairly good overall condition ,but I am going to replate full sections in midships/aft section.It is a single chine and from the fin keel to the chine the width of bottom plates does not exceed 1450 mm.That I have come across some 3000mm x 1500mm x 5mm sheets is why I am going to replate.The 15 sheets of 5,mm plate only cost me $1200 ( lucky ) so it will only cost me time to replate and then I will have peace of mind.Some frames and stringers will be replaced at the same time.Fortunately, where I have it on the hard is an old industrial site and there is so much steel angle,flat and bar thaat the owner will let me have for free I would be foolish not to use it.
The current motor is an old Yanmar 2SE 2 cylinder,20 hp + gearbox .Not sure how it is but I have available for purchase a 3 cyl 40 hp Lister and gearbox,heat exch and other parts for $ 4000.Seems reasonable ?
Being a 10 tonne boat I thought the 40 hp better prospect ?
Should I sell the Yanmar and how much would it be worth do you think ?

Basically at present it is an open hull ( shell ).Fortunately where
I have it I have approx 20mtrs x 30 mtrs of open space with power.water.shelter and it is an industrial site 5 minutes from home.
Can't annoy anyone except myself and can work there 7 days a week if I like.
Cost: $30 per week so I am blessed at the moment with this.
There is no mast or sails but I have some 8,10,12 mm S/Steel rigging and shackles etc.
Looking for a mast,boom and sails soon if I can buy and store.

If it was a boat that was fitted out inside I might have been more against it but as it was so cheap and it is now gutted to show its inner condition so openly I must admit even though it will be a lot of work it might be worth it ?

After I put my life and soul into it I dont expect that I will want to on sell it but you never know.I might want to do another one.
Wait one !!- Just need to go outside and give myself a quick triple uppercut.
Back again- No -I wont do this twice in one life time.

Have read your blog and it is very interesting.Thanks.

Have the complete guide to metal boats book and many others I have purchased over the last 5 months so am reading up wherever I can and getting advice wherever possible.

Thanks very much for your input and advice it is very much appreciated.

Regards
John.
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Old 08-06-2008, 01:37   #7
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Take lots of photos to prove what you did. Have a marine surver check it in stages before you cover anything up. Check out the "Metal boat Society". Best of luck
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Old 08-06-2008, 01:46   #8
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Borocay,

Have found a few pictures to show you.
Not really good ones ( or pretty either ! ) but will give you some idea.
Looks a lot better nowadays after I gave it a haircut ( knocked the top off ) and tidy up.

Regards
John.
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:30   #9
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Hi john and Welcome....hang on ....this is my territory !!!!Post to follow !!!
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:37   #10
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OK deep breath....in ...out in....and exhale....and smile......there is not a single thing in your post that I cannot relate to./ been there done that (twice). Firstly time* from where you are at you will need ....three years. Seriously ..to balance the work home/relationship stuff. Second if you have the dream and your relationship can stand it DO IT. Third bagging these kinds of "ridiculous dreams is a way of life for the internet and any right minded person. The truth is right minded people save lots of money, go into debt and buy plastic boats. BUT the interest rates on their loans doubles the cost of the boat.

FIRST....forget fridges freezes and polished veneers. Throw away super radar and integrated multy systems. They will do your head in. The average cruising boat has (and don't quote me) 22 000 individual bits.

Start from the beginning and aim low...you can in a short space of time have a very large boat that you can sail locally.

...What you have is a steel hull at an absolute bargain basement price. Congratulations you have seriously scored big time. You can scrap that at any time and make a heap of money on your investment. Seriously have a look at metal prices and you will see I am right.

The next step..

The
hull integrity is important. Join the Metal boat society www.metalboatsociaty.org this is a not for profit group who deal with metal boats. Ask questions and search their web site. The question of hull integrity and how to check it is mentioned many times.

If you are sure that there is enough metal....(plate thickness) and your dream is as strong as ever....post again.

You are welcome to send me a private pm.

I post this pic to show what CAN be done...this is MY boat . Plenty of people will say otherwise so this is just a balance.

Do remember it will take a huge amount of work. The balance is you will know your boat in the most interment detail.

Do remember that it may take a strain on your relationship. The balance is if it works then your future will be way stronger than most tests that relationships are put under. (I say this not because I am spewing up yet another internet opinion but because I am there right now)

Do remember that at the end of the project that you may not save as much as you thought. But you will have gained more than simple bank loans can give.

DO think out side of the square. For coastal cruising, elaborate plumbing is not necessary. A porta poty and bottled water is fine.

DO remember the basic aims. A steel hull that is well prepared and painted that allows you to add to it as time goes by. Engine and systems that keep you safe. A sailing rig that is simple and strong. All safety gear is on board.


So many projects that I have seen are consumed by people who are spending their time putting together little pieces of wood and expensive pieces of electronics.

To sail comfortably and safely is not that difficult.

my boats interior is made of scrap and road side garbage.

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keep the dream and keep it real......
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Old 08-06-2008, 07:34   #11
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Cooper,

Hi, and thanks very much for the down to earth,positive and common sense advice.
Must admit the breathing thingo is a good one.When they lifted the hull out of the water I couldn't breath because I was so scared the whole bloody thing was going to fold inwards.Knew over the last few months there was something missing.

Breathe in -breathe out.-Works !!

Anyway, down to business.
Realise and am aware of the very important part about balance as it is part of my professional life at work managing people.Not saying I dont stretch the boundaries now and then ,but know the limits also.

The fancy things dont really appeal to me in general just common sense items like you say.If I can afford a few luxury items later -well and good.If not they wont pick me up out of the water so I can live without some of them.From a research perspective I have a myriad of books on metal boat fabrication/design etc which I am reading at every opportunity.
There is good integrity in the hull and where there has been poor protection and the hull is thin I am replating.Have 15 sheets of 3m x1.5m x5mm plate at my disposal.
As you say the balance will be in my knowing the ins and outs of every inch of my boat.That's how I planned this project from the start.
You are right about the scrap value.Even before I pulled it out of the water I knew how much I could get on top of the purchase price.
As it turned out although the superstructure was poorly maintained and rusted through the anodes fitted to the hull had done their job.
Where I have it on the hard
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Old 08-06-2008, 17:36   #12
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New engines are really expensive but...

New engines are really expensive but wife has never complained about the cost from the first press of the starter button.

I put in a John Deere 4045D (4.5 litres, 75hp at 2500rpm) with a parts cost of about $23k. Took four months (about 350 hours). The exhaust had to be upgraded to 4" and the prop will need to be repitched someday.

I'd put in the largest engine that the prop shaft will accommodate (if it is in good condition) otherwise the sky's the limit.

If money is restricted I'd stay with the Yanmar if it cleans up and runs OK. Check if parts are still available.

Bret Swain (aka "Louis Riel") has some strong comments to make about the need for a weatherproof pilothouse.

Nice looking boat. It looks like a one that was built near my ferro in Sydney some 35 years ago. The designers name will pop into my old head eventually and I'll post it.
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Old 08-06-2008, 18:41   #13
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Hi Boracay,
The Lister 3 cyl I have been offered by a friend is in very good condition with heat exch, 2 gearboxes,wiring harness etc.It is a HRW model at 40 hp.
At $4000:00 for everything I thought that was a very fair offer.?

My boat will probably end up at around 10-10.5 tonne.Will 40 hp be sufficient or should I go for more horsepower ??

Also,
If any one can provide some advise on the following items would be appreciated:
Re: Size of mast,boom I should be looking at for a 40 yacht in general so I can keep my eyes open( even if I put it in storage for a while would be ok ) as I go about.

Re : Sandblasting and Painting.
Anyone recently had their steel yacht sandblasted and painted.Would be good to know approx costs for sandblast and undercoat or sanblast,undercoat,paint at a per square metre rate
I am looking at doing at least the sanblasting myself.Where I have the boat is perfect.Industrial site ,nothing around me for 50-60 yards except concrete hardstand and no neighbours for at least 300mtrs.
On inquiry I have been told I can get the garnet medium to blast at around $600 per tonne and can hire a blaster for either $188 per day of $500 for 5 days.Being a shell I figure once I replate the bottom section where necessary I can then do the inside /outside with out much holding me back getting into al the nooks and crannys.
As I have access to a very good industrial compressor (600cfm ) I think this will save me some funds ?Alternatively would like advice on whether it is better to bite the bullet and get someone in to do it.
The costs seem high to get it done but as we all know you get what you pay for.
Not too scared about maybe doing the undercoat if pressed but the part I am a really hesitant about is the finish coat (s).End product I would like to be very good as expected.

Am I better off leaving the 2 pack coating to the professionals.?

Regards
John.
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Old 08-06-2008, 21:54   #14
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Build-Boat John - Pugh

A little use of the internet has prompted my memory.

The boat that was built near mine some years ago was possibly designed by (and my memory is getting dim) John Pugh.

A discussion at Boat Design Forums suggests that it might have come from "Build-a-Boat" yacht designs.

I found a reference to "Build-a-Boat" at NSW Marine Directory.

If the boat is a Pugh he or the plans rights holders may be able to help with the sail plan.

Your 40hp Lister would do the job but as the boat is looks like a heavy motor-sailer I would suggest something bigger if possible.

I have been advised that G & S Sandblasting price competitively. It is a dangerous uncomfortable job so getting the professionals is desirable.

Having clear drainage of all water so that nothing ponds is very important. Steel nooks and crannies with small amounts of salt water in them will rust almost as you watch no matter how good the paint.

I have given up on two pack paint as a finish coat on the outside. It seems to scratch or mark as soon as I put it on and it is very hard to touch up. I am now going with a one pack polyurethane enamel from BIAS.

You could really take your time with the mast and rigging. Items like radar, mast lights aerials etc. need to be installed before the mast goes up. I have had Boracay for almost two years and have yet to put the sails up.

If you are planning davits they can be incorporated into a stern arch along with many other bits of equipment.
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:42   #15
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Thanks Borocay,
You've given me a bit of fuel for the fire. I will take your advice and others received seriously on the water getting into the little nooks and crannies so will be putting a fair bit of planning into making sure any that does gets in and ponds will drain to the bilge pumps overall.
Points taken and will consider on the mast, motor and sandblasting
I have been talking to someone about this yacht today It just may be that it is based on a John Pugh or was built off plans purchased from him.
They said they know him personally and will chase it through.
Would be good to know.

Do you say the one pack is more worth the consideration than two pack ?
Why is that ?

Regards
John.
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