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Old 22-01-2010, 09:13   #46
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Spend $30 and call Chief. I'm betting it will be the best $30 you will spend.

If it runs to redline in neutral, to me, it has to be a a problem with air intake (your turbo) or your driveline is binding up somewhere.

Just for grins, dump all of your water overboard. It's likely the 1500-2000 lbs. That should make up for the added cruising gear. Take it out by yourself. See how it runs then.
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Old 22-01-2010, 09:59   #47
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Originally Posted by Tspringer View Post
Diver found nothing wrong with the prop, it rotates and changes pitch as it should and there are no obstructions of any sort.

I am at Marine Consulting Services in Jacksonville, a Yanmar dealer with multiple guys who claim 30+ years of diesel experience. Not that that means anything at this point.

I may get into the diesel mechanic racket myself, it seems to be much like being a weather man. You know little, but have lots of theories and general philosophies. You play with lots of neat gear and tools but are still basically throwing darts. The pay is good, and nobody really expects you to bat more than 50% anyhow and when your flat out wrong you still get paid.

Sounds almost as good as a Government job!

If I stay here next is apparently to get hauled out to change the prop pitch. They are guessing at this point that since the boat probably weighs a bit more with all our cruising gear aboard that it has crossed that magic line where the wrong prop pitch for the past 10 years is now causing this problem. In other words, the prop has been overpitched but before the issue was not so critical but now it is.

Throwing more money darts in the dark is what it is. These guys have no idea what is wrong.... but then again neither does anyone else really. Going to another tech would seem prudent but the chances are equal that the next guy could be worse rather than better and besides he will also be a weather man.

Any idea how to contact Chief? Maybe paying 2 weathermen is better than one?!?!?!



Terry


Take a breath. Your frustration reads through and I know we all feel for you.
Go to the "Vendors Forum" and look for "My first post as a Vendor" by Chief, it's about the third or fourth post down.
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Old 22-01-2010, 10:04   #48
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Would love to call Chief.... I left a message at the Smithcorp Marine number of the webpage I found and hope thats the right one.


I am NOT going for another haul out. All the maintenance records for the boat show that the prop is correctly pitched and I see no way for the prop pitch to magically change or for improper prop pitch to not show any adverse effects for 10 years and then to suddenly manifest itself in this severe manner. I think the prop thing is baffled engine guys throwing darts in the dark.



Terry
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Old 22-01-2010, 10:31   #49
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With those hours on the engine, the engine sitting for some time, a sudden change starting with black soot and smoke...etc......I'm guessing that the exhaust elbow or somewhere else is plugged up with carbon/soot. Maybe a chunk borke loose? That would explain the decrease in power, RPM, the black smoke etc. If it was propped right before...it wouldnt change. My second guess is that they didnt get the injectors right. Would a complete set of new injectors be any more than hauling and changing props? You would have to be grossly over pitched to cause this problem. When you hauled out did you service the Max Prop? is it possible that you pitched it wrong putting it back together?
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Old 22-01-2010, 10:35   #50
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more ideas...

Terry - I feel for you. I've done something very similar with the same engine. Get a second opinion from a reputable mechanic recommended by the biggest dealer in your area. It ain't the prop - as you know.

My "bet" - it's the injectors, fuel pump timing or a small leak in the oil seal on the turbo (very hard to find). There is NO need to repower - this engine is a workhorse and can be repaired.

Check the injector pressure - on some 4JH2-HTEs it's 165bar and on others its 200bar; then check the fuel pump timing (see service manual for fairly straightforward procedure) - then go for the turbo with expert help.

And don't lose faith - it can be fixed.
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Old 22-01-2010, 11:46   #51
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Seriously, your mechanics do not appear to know what they are doing. They should also be standing by their work. If they got paid but it is not fixed, they should be eating some work to get it fixed. Not charging you more.

I know there are million ideas and theories coming at you. But, we know what the "problem" is. Now we just need to find the "cause".

The problem is that you do not have enough turbo boost to generate the HP you need.

This has been verified (as stated by you): 9 psi instead of 15 psi. This is a major cut in boost.

Knowing there is a lack of boost, we need to find the cause. Luckily there can only be a few things causing this...

1. Intake blockage (you state this has been checked and clearly is not the issue).

2. Exhaust blockage (I asked about this, you did not say if it was actually checked. You only state that smoke and water come out. But that does not mean there is not a restriction. This needs to be physically checked. Cheechako's suggestion to check the elbow is a good starting point. But the system in full needs to be checked).

3. Bad Turbo (I know you don't want to believe it, but you turbos are very sensitive. Since we don't know what your cleaning regiment was, we are skeptical).

3a. You didn't answer about the turbo wastegate. Does your turbo have one? If so, This is a critical adjustment. Not difficult to adjust, but critical that it be proper.

4. I would like to hear that the injection timing, fuel pressure, and delivery rate were actually tested. You only said that the mechanics didn't think these could cause this issue. I disagree: Ignition timing seriously effects power, just like it does on a gasoline engine.

---

Stop looking at compression, this is not a lack of compression issue. Period.

Re-power is just a large dart at the problem. Waste. You just need a better mechanic.

Have you considered moving on to another yard? The boat moves. You need a different mechanic.

---

All this said, once you get this all running like it should. You might then want to look at the prop. You might be just slightly overpropped. You did say that you could get black smoke and soot at full throttle prior to all this work. This may be what clogged up your injectors to begin with.

However, I do not think the prop is the problem now. Period. Even if you had fouled the prop. You would see the turbo boost. But we don't, so turbo boost is the problem.
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Old 22-01-2010, 11:49   #52
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The exhaust elbow is a giant cast bronze piece.... it was removed and thoroughly cleaned out when I cleaned up everything on the engine. It showed no wear or issues.

The injectors were setup with NEW nozzles by an injection shop and the pressures were tested before rebuilding and after, the numbers are on. Throwing another set of new injectors at it seems pointless. If another set gave the same problem would I try a 3d set and if not why not?

The max prop has not been apart since June of 2008. The diver verified this morning that it is not fouled and it operates smoothly and properly.

The injection pump has not been removed nor anything on it really changed. But of course it could still be bad.

Buy a new pump... buy a new turbo.... but another set of new injectors.... buy a new prop.... repeat as required..... pretty soon you could have bought an entire new engine. I am over $2K into this and have nothing to show for it except a wife and crew who are ready to mutiny.


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Old 22-01-2010, 11:52   #53
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Diesels need Air and Fuel.

You are delivering a large amount of fuel because the engine expects to see a large charge of air (from the turbo).

The turbo is not supplying the boost required to burn all the fuel delivered.

This incomplete fuel burn is the Black smoke and Soot.

You need either less fuel, or more air. It is that simple.
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Old 22-01-2010, 11:53   #54
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Personally, I can't see how a little extra prop pitch would make a diesel blow smoke. Aren't diesels suppose to work better under load. When do you ever see a diesel blowing smoke when pullling a load up a hill?

I'd be looking at the intake system............._/)
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Old 22-01-2010, 12:01   #55
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I really doubt the injector pump is the culprit. You are obviously getting a large amount of fuel.

Sounds like you are very confident the timing is not disturbed or out.

If you had a full 15 psi of boost and still smoked and sooted, then the pump could be flooding the engine and need rebuild.

Why are you looking at the pump?

You clearly lack turbo boost. Have you checked to see what a new turbo cartridge is going to run you?

And again, is there a wastegate?

Maybe you don't know what a wastegate is...

A turbo sits in the exhaust path. The exhaust blows through the turbo and makes it spin. To prevent over speed or spinning too fast, the wastegate opens and allows the exhaust to bypass the turbo.

If this is not closed tightly the turbo will never reach full speed because exhaust is always bypassing.

Not all turbos use a wastegate. So you need to know if you have one or not.

--

Turbos spin in the hundreds of thousands of RPM range. Like 100,000 to 300,000 rpm. This is very fast and the bearing is very sensitive. If you washed debris in there you may have caused the problem.

How about at least having the turbo looked at by a turbo shop. Not a mechanic. Only a specialized turbo rebuilder can look at it. Even he might only be able to change the cartridge. These are very precision parts.

I can't help anymore. All the answers are here in this thread.
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Old 22-01-2010, 12:05   #56
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Delmarry, on the road diesels (cars and trucks) have soot collectors in the exhaust. Like a catalytic converter on a gas engine. This cleans up the exhaust by finishing burning any unburnt fuel so you don't see any smoke.

If you look at old diesel big rigs with open exhaust, you will always see black smoke when they shift or pull a heavy load.

Look at a racing diesel truck, they smoke all the time because they turn the fuel delivery to the max for more power.
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Old 22-01-2010, 12:13   #57
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No wastegate on this engine, I do know what they are.

Our next money dart is a new turbo. We are trying to find one now, so far the only one we have found is in Chicago. We are trying to find a rebuilt one if possible.... New seems about $1,500, further down the road to what a new engine would cost and no real clue if the problem will be fixed or not.

Any suggestions on where to get a turbo?



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Old 22-01-2010, 12:41   #58
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I am no where near FL. I called a local shop to me that I found with Google. Rebuild is about $500.

He said there should be zero play in and out. Side to Side should be less than 10 thousandths. There should be zero oil or blackness in the boost output side (the air pipe between the turbo and engine). There should be no damage whatsoever to the fan blades or housing. The blades and housing should never touch each other or leave gouges.

He said if the bearing is dragging it will slow the turbo and reduce boost. But could not diagnose over the phone. He has to see it.

Bad news, he did mention it could possibly be the injection pump. His online chart shows injection pump for your symptoms. So I don't know. But I will say that you messed with the turbo and not the pump.

http://www.turbo-power.com/problems.html

All that said: I still think it is the turbo.
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Old 22-01-2010, 12:42   #59
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At least you can figure that your $2000 so far isnt really wasted: You obviously needed injector work and likely the lift pump. If another $1500 gets you fixed then I guess it's worth it. I would be careful about rebuilt vs new unless there is a BIG $ difference. RE: Prop....My Perkins 4-108 was over pitched the whole time I had the boat. I mistakenly was told the Max RPM was 2600 on that engine when I set up the new Max Prop. Boat performed wonderfully (heavy 44 footer too) for the whole cruising and I only found out that 4-108's are higher rpm engines well after my cruise. No black smoke. Personally I wouldnt own a Turbo.. more to go wrong, an attempt by manufacturers to get more HP out of a small engine and they wear out engines faster than naturally aspirated engine. (at least in cars they do) I guess the question at this point is how long will the rest of the engine last...? and does anyone know....Is it possible to de-turbo an engine? Can you live with the lower HP if you did? Or does the engine have a lot of turbo related changes?
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Old 22-01-2010, 12:54   #60
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Sitting here thinking about it...

Before you drop anymore money on it. Call around. Call turbo shops and injector pump shops. Even if they are not in your area. Just ask them what they think. Tell them what you have checked.

The guy I just called was more than willing to talk it over with me.

Oh, he also said when you spin the turbo with your fingers it should be smooth as glass. No grit or sticky feeling. Smooth...
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