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Old 08-02-2010, 16:09   #286
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I agree completely with all the points about not throwing a band aid at this problem. Tearing this engine apart, honing the bad liner and throwing new rings on the bad piston and then putting it all back together does not strike me as a good long term solution. I plan to own and cruise this boat for many years, I want an engine I can 100% depend upon and that will be a plus to the boat, not a detriment.

So that leaves me with either a full rebuild of the existing engine, or a re-power. After looking at both options going the rebuild route takes lots more time and effort, has the boat out of commission much longer and does not cost that much less. So I am leaning toward re-powering with a new Yanmar 4JH4-TE, the current 75hp model.

My biggest hesitation with this is that the engine would be coming from Mastry, the Regional Yanmar distributor and I honestly am not happy with them. I spent a great deal of money attempting to fix the old engine based upon the diagnostics of Marine Consulting Services, a Yanmar dealer in Jacksonville (Jim Hendricks) and Doug Dykens at Mastry. Doug insisted all along and basically still insists that all the problems with this engine go back to the max prop and the engine being overloaded by the prop.

First off, this 4,000 hour engine had at least 3,000 hours of its overall use running out of gear at 1,200rpm turning a fridge compressor and alternator at anchor. How is the max-prop causing the wear then? The vast majority if not absolute majority of the remaining hours the engine was run at 2,000-2,800rpm pushing the boat along at a good cruise speed of 6.5-7.5 knots showing no smoke or issues at all.

The problems- black smoke and inability to produce max rpm plus fuel dilution of the oil, did not begin until we left the dock after 6 months of extensive refit work on other systems. The engine failure symptoms came on suddenly. How is the max prop to blame for sudden onset engine failure symptoms?

MCS inspected and diagnosed the engine and said I needed new injectors, cleaned out the intercooler and then sold me a turbo…. All without a simple compression test. I hauled out and reset the max prop based solely on the insistence of Mastry, again without the engine having been really properly diagnosed. All told I am out over $3,500 because none of these guys were willing to accept that a Yanmar could have an internal engine failure.

Well… clearly it has. I have asked the Mastry guys to give me credit for the turbo against the purchase of a new engine, but that’s a no go. I am also going to have to pay for yet another haul out to reset the max prop AGAIN back to its correct settings for a 75hp engine. Relative to the turbo, they say I have to contact MCS…. Who is back in Jacksonville and has not returned any of my last calls. Basically, all the money I spent so far is just gone… too bad. THAT leaves a very bad Yanmar taste in my mouth.

(anyone want to buy a used 4JH2- HTE with one bad cylinder a bad injection pump but new injectors, and a brand new turbo???)

The prop thing really gets my goat. YES… the prop was overpitched you could say. The boat would not make the engines rated rpm. But the reason the rpm was not possible with the prop pitch that was set was not because the pitch was too high…. It was because the supposedly 75hp engine was probably only giving 45hp because it was dead on one cylinder! Of course its over-pitched for an engine dragging a dead cylinder around. Yet, that was never considered a possibility and instead it was repeatedly insisted that the problem could only be the max prop being over-pitched.

Arrrghgghhhhhhhhh

If I could find a new Westerbeke or other engine that would drop right in and bolt up to the same overall footprint of the old Yanmar I would walk away from Yanmar and never look back.

I may call Mack Boring and see if I can buy a Yanmar through them and have it shipped down here. I am also going to keep trying MCS until I do get a reply and try to return this turbo that should never have been sold to me.

The lesson for people to learn here is very simple: REAL mechanics DO have the tools and skill to conduct hard testing in order to obtain real numbers and diagnostic information thus allowing effective repairs and not expensive guesses. NEVER work with a shop or technician who is not prepared to do such tests. I made this mistake and it has proven very expensive.



Terry
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Old 08-02-2010, 16:43   #287
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If I could find a new Westerbeke or other engine that would drop right in and bolt up to the same overall footprint of the old Yanmar I would walk away from Yanmar and never look back.

I may call Mack Boring and see if I can buy a Yanmar through them and have it shipped down here. I am also going to keep trying MCS until I do get a reply and try to return this turbo that should never have been sold to me.

Terry
there are options if your open to them.

Mack won't ship an engine to you, out of their service area. They get in big piles of stinky trouble with Yanmar America.
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Old 08-02-2010, 16:48   #288
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I'm not sure if it will swap out or not, but there's a remanufactured 4JH3-TE for $6500 plus core:
715.779-3266. Same guy has a brand new one for $8500.
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Old 08-02-2010, 17:18   #289
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"First off, this 4,000 hour engine had at least 3,000 hours of its overall use running out of gear at 1,200rpm turning a fridge compressor and alternator at anchor. How is the max-prop causing the wear then? The vast majority if not absolute majority of the remaining hours the engine was run at 2,000-2,800rpm pushing the boat along at a good cruise speed of 6.5-7.5 knots showing no smoke or issues at all."


Hi Terry, tough break to be sure but it will be behind you and things will look brighter.

I don't want to start an argument over bore glazing and bore polishing. But three thousand hours of running an alternator and fridge compressor at 1200 rpm. It would have been cheaper to buy a small generator. What's the hull speed of this boat? 2000-2800 rpm to hit 6.5 to 7.5 knts. I can see how one would believe that the prop was partly a contributing factor. This kind of operation runs against Yanmars recommendations all day long.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:09   #290
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This just keeps getting more and more fun.

The folks at JAS Marine have quoted me a new engine which of course is coming from Mastry. No credit on the turbo.... my only option there is to try and work something out with Mobile Consulting Services who sold it to me. Fair enough, Mastry did not sell me the turbo so I will try and go back to MCS and when that gets me nowhere I will try and sell it on ebay or such.

The big Miami boat show starts this Thursday. As we all know.... manufacturers tend to offer some pretty good discounts on stuff sold at the boat show. Yanmar is going to be at the boat show. So, I figured that rather than wire funds to buy a new engine today why not wait until Thursday and see what the pricing at the boat show looks like. Because of the boat show there will be no delay either way on getting a new engine delivered so it would seem waiting a few days to see what boat show pricing may be is a good idea.

The folks at JAS marine contacted Mastry and tried to find out if there would be boat show pricing from Yanmar and if so could we get any details now.... and they were told that at this point nobody knows anything about any boat show discounts but that there was only 1 engine available, no more will apparently be available anytime soon and that if it is not purchased immediatly there is no guaranty that an engine will be available.

Can I have floor mats with that used Buick or are they extra?


Terry
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:35   #291
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This just keeps getting more and more fun.

The folks at JAS Marine have quoted me a new engine which of course is coming from Mastry. No credit on the turbo.... my only option there is to try and work something out with Mobile Consulting Services who sold it to me. Fair enough, Mastry did not sell me the turbo so I will try and go back to MCS and when that gets me nowhere I will try and sell it on ebay or such.

The big Miami boat show starts this Thursday. As we all know.... manufacturers tend to offer some pretty good discounts on stuff sold at the boat show. Yanmar is going to be at the boat show. So, I figured that rather than wire funds to buy a new engine today why not wait until Thursday and see what the pricing at the boat show looks like. Because of the boat show there will be no delay either way on getting a new engine delivered so it would seem waiting a few days to see what boat show pricing may be is a good idea.

The folks at JAS marine contacted Mastry and tried to find out if there would be boat show pricing from Yanmar and if so could we get any details now.... and they were told that at this point nobody knows anything about any boat show discounts but that there was only 1 engine available, no more will apparently be available anytime soon and that if it is not purchased immediatly there is no guaranty that an engine will be available.

Can I have floor mats with that used Buick or are they extra?


Terry

Terry, you know I'll be at the show. If you'd like I'll walk over to the Yanmar booth and see what kind of discount offers they are making for the show. I can't believe they don't know the boat show discounts before hand. I know what our offered boat show discounts will be all year long. PM me if you'd like me to try.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:41   #292
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Terry, you know I'll be at the show. If you'd like I'll walk over to the Yanmar booth and see what kind of discount offers they are making for the show. I can't believe they don't know the boat show discounts before hand. I know what our offered boat show discounts will be all year long. PM me if you'd like me to try.

I have a hard time believing that nobody has any clue whether or not there will be any boat show discounts offered on new engines 2 days before the show is due to start. To cap that off with insinuations that if I do not wire funds and purchase the in stock engine immediately I will likely end up with no engine available really smacks of the kind of marketing I would expect from the mortgage business or a used car lot.

I am trying to figure out ground transportation for going to the show myself on Thursday. If I can make it I would love to meet up. If anyone around the north Palm Beach / West Palm Beach area is going on Thursday let me know if you spare a seat.

I called the number provided by bstreep and talked briefly with the boss there.... it is possible there are some other options there.


Terry
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:01   #293
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Terry,
If your disgusted with Yanmar. Let me know I'll work up some options.
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:36   #294
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is there a Beta marine Kubota option in that size range? One advantqge of a new engine is it comes with a tranny right? Maybe it is time to change out the engine setup...yanmar started great but I have serious misgivings any more.... and as I previously posted I DO NOT believe the Yanmar will last as long as other good diesels from my experience and now yours too! You might be able to find 75 hp without a turbo too...cummins? tough decision for sure...maybe the boat show will shed some light...
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Old 09-02-2010, 16:48   #295
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When you visit the Yanmar booth, you might want to snag a computer browser and show them this thread, and let them know that this is one of the most popular websites for sailboat cruisers, and that there have been nearly 12,000 views of this problem thread. There are LOTS of people watching how poorly Yanmar is handling this situation.

Frankly, Yanmar needs to step up on this situation. They are the ones that approved the morons who worked on your engine, and totally botched the diagnosis. While this isn't uncommon (unfortunately), they HAVE to be interested in the black eye they are getting here. You would think that this segment of the market is of interest to them?

BTW, for those that are attending this show - feel free when you look at boats to ask: "What kind of engine does it have? Oh, a Yanmar? No thanks, have you seen the thread on the Cruiser's Forum where everyone is bashing them for their sorry customer service?".

Another thought: This is funny - take your boat down to the show, and put a big "Powered by Yanmar" on it, as you drive thru the marinas, spewing black smoke.
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Old 09-02-2010, 21:57   #296
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All this bad mouthing the Yanmar motor. I'm not sure these problems were due to a defective motor by what I've read on this thread.

Diesels are not like gas motors. You can't just let diesels run long without being under load. I was told many times years ago that when you start up a diesel it should only idle long enough to get the fluids flowing and then put it to work. And when shutting down, rev it up a few times and then let it idle for a couple minute before cutting off the fuel.

Although, I am not happy with the way Yanmar deals with customers! They seem to want a monopolize and only want to deal with distributors/vendors.

My old diesel (VW) had over 7000 hours and was still going strong until it lost a 'timing belt idler pulley bearing', which threw the belt braking the cam. I know a trucker that had 1/2 million miles on his rig before he bought a new one and it was still running OK.

I'm curious to how many hours the average diesel will really get. Time for a new thread.
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:20   #297
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Buying from a Boat Show

There is a Beta Marine engine in this horse power range, there are also options from other manufacturers as well, most of them are not turbo charged and are generally better suited to sailboats. However, size may be a problem.

None turbo engines of this size tend to be physically larger than the Yanmar turbocharged engines. The 75HP engine in question is basically the same engine size as say their 50-55HP version with the turbo providing the extra power rather than the extra displacement of a none turbo engine. This has been favored by the boat manufacturers in recent years as the reduced size means a smaller engine room and move 'living space' and they also can be more cost effective for the boat builder....

Having said that, it all depends on the boat as to whether a none turbo engine will fit and to this point, I don't think Tspringer (Terry) has mentioned his boat make and model.

Should Terry make it to the boat show, he should take the following information.

Make and Model of Boat*
Displacement*
LWL (Length of Water Line)*
Engine (HP at max. RPM) and Transmission Information (Ratio) (not absolutely necessary as the new engine size and transmission ratio can be calculated), it may be that a 'Bob-Tail' engine can be purchased for use with the existing transmission.
Width between the engine bed centers.
Type of transmission, Straight (with ir without drop center), Down Angle, V-Drive.*
Existing Propeller Dimensions (pitch and diameter)
Boats Under Water Form (General Description, (fin keel, full keel or ?) of particular interest will be whether the propeller is in a pocket, the clearance to the hull or a measurement from the centerline of the propeller shaft to the hull). This information will give an idea of the 'wetted surface' and help with the selection of the transmission ratio that in combination with the right propeller will give the most efficient, economical setup with minimal 'prop-walk'.
Propeller Shaft Diameter (will be required for coupler sizing if order placed)
Any special requirements (larger alternator, engine driven compressor brackets, etc.)
The minumum information required is show with an asterisk *.

This information will allow a good salesman, from ANY of the engine manufacturers, to specify and cost the best engine/transmission configuration for that specific boat.

Quiz the salesman on how changing to the engine offered will effect your installation, what changes you may have to make to hose sizes and routing, what side the exhaust exits and anything that will make the installation quick and easy and not a nightmare. Even Yanmar may have made changes since your original engine was produced. Also find out if the price is 'manufacturer/distributor direct' or through their 'dealer network' particularly if you are not planning to install the engine yourself.

If possible, make contact with the potential suppliers in advance of the show, let them know your intention, some may indicate what a saving you will make at the show and offer you free tickets to the show. Find out if your existing transmission can be adapted to their engine and ask for a dimensional drawing of the engine/transmission combination that is recommended so that you can take your own measurements of your engine comparment and comfirm the fit. Check on availability, the salesman may not know availability of the combination of engine/transmission you need.

My apologies if this above is a bit disjointed, I didn't expect this reply to be so long and I have no time to review it now as I need to leave for work. I am sure though, there will be others that can offer their points of view or experiences.



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is there a Beta marine Kubota option in that size range? One advantqge of a new engine is it comes with a tranny right? Maybe it is time to change out the engine setup...yanmar started great but I have serious misgivings any more.... and as I previously posted I DO NOT believe the Yanmar will last as long as other good diesels from my experience and now yours too! You might be able to find 75 hp without a turbo too...cummins? tough decision for sure...maybe the boat show will shed some light...
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:17   #298
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All this bad mouthing the Yanmar motor. I'm not sure these problems were due to a defective motor by what I've read on this thread.

Diesels are not like gas motors. You can't just let diesels run long without being under load. I was told many times years ago that when you start up a diesel it should only idle long enough to get the fluids flowing and then put it to work. And when shutting down, rev it up a few times and then let it idle for a couple minute before cutting off the fuel.

Although, I am not happy with the way Yanmar deals with customers! They seem to want a monopolize and only want to deal with distributors/vendors.

My old diesel (VW) had over 7000 hours and was still going strong until it lost a 'timing belt idler pulley bearing', which threw the belt braking the cam. I know a trucker that had 1/2 million miles on his rig before he bought a new one and it was still running OK.

I'm curious to how many hours the average diesel will really get. Time for a new thread.
This is a bit confusing.... pull into any truck stop anywhere and most of the big rigs have there motors running all night ??
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:39   #299
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All this bad mouthing the Yanmar motor. I'm not sure these problems were due to a defective motor by what I've read on this thread.
We have 2 Yanmars on our boat - 75hp propulsion and 17hp generator. We love our Yanmars.

HOWEVER, the bashing in this thread has not generally been about the engine, but rather the support. THAT is where Yanmar has their problems. Fortunately for them, they have a decent product. Their support could only get worse if they outsourced it overseas.
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:04   #300
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This is a bit confusing.... pull into any truck stop anywhere and most of the big rigs have there motors running all night ??
I believe what you hear running is for the refrigeration, wheather it be the main engine or auxilery. In either case it would be under load and not at an idle. We all know how to polish cylinders, right?
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