Yanmar Repower or ?!?

[SailingYoungs]

I have a 2003 Bavaria 49. We love the boat and want to keep it. Last summer we had an issue with the Volvo TMD-22 where the turbo corroded, got stuck in the open position and then it blew the head gasket. So, we had the top end rebuilt, new turbo, new injectors, machined the head, etc etc. I've heard that if you rebuild the top of the engine the bottom goes out. Well, that's exactly what just happened. One of our pistons blew and so now the engine needs to have the bottom rebuilt. Or we repower.

I understand that it will cost about $10K to rebuild our existing engine and it will have to be removed to do it. So that's what got me thinking about repowering. I can get a brand new Yanmar 4JH4-TE in Seattle for $11,800. The issue is the outrageous price to install it. I got a quote from a local shop here for $14,000 to install it and $2,400 in miscellaneous parts. The labor quote was for 127 hours and three weeks in the month of May. 127 hours! When I heard that I thought maybe they planned to install and remove it once a week for three weeks until they got it just right.

I'm at a loss. You can buy a lot for $28K. A new car, part of a college education, a down payment on a house. Maybe I should just wait until December when I can get a shop to do it for half as much? Maybe I should hire some out of work mechanic off Craigslist? Maybe I take a month off and try to do it myself... I rebuilt a 4-108 once in my youth. Maybe I take the boat out to deep water and cut off a through hull hose?

Thoughts? Advice?

[delmarrey]

Why not try yourself? Have you ever replaced a motor in a car? It's a bit different in a boat since you have to set up your own mounts and drive system, but the concept is the same. If your skilled enough an overseer would be all you need.

The pit falls would be if you have a job to go to everyday. Or you don't have any tools. Then you'll have to pay the devil.

[daddle]

That labor bid seems way high. That had better include a complete engine room refit and paint. The extra parts must include filters, mounts, and shaft seal and such.

I've installed three engines recently. Only took a few days, two or three, for the engine work. Working alone. Cleaning and painting took a week or so because I'd never put a new engine in a dirty room.

The exhaust and mounts can cause some unexpected items.

[Charlie]

Check the price on Beta engines. Don't know if they have turbos though. I had mine installed in Sydney,Canada for much less then that including new bed and a generator it was still a lot less!

[bstreep]

I'd echo what Charlie says. Look at a Beta engine. As it's NOT turbocharged, it's a bit bigger than what you have, likely, but still 4 cylinder. They have a 75hp, which should be about right.

We have a Yanmark 4JH 75 hp turbo in our boat. A turbo does NOT belong in a sailboat. We just don't run them hard enough. Seriously, if you are going to repower, 1) stay away from Yanmar (stupid-expensive parts prices) and 2) don't go in with a turbo.

[Boracay]

Your labour quote seems to be a little on the high side.

I took 3 months to remove a 6 cyl Ford diesel and to install a John Deere. That's about 240 hours of unskilled labour, learning as I went. This involved rebuilding absolutely everything connected to the engine.

This is removing and replacing the same engine, right? Have you shopped round for other quotes?

[jgbrown]

Originally Posted by SailingYoungs

I have a 2003 Bavaria 49. We love the boat and want to keep it. Last summer we had an issue with the Volvo TMD-22 where the turbo corroded, got stuck in the open position and then it blew the head gasket. So, we had the top end rebuilt, new turbo, new injectors, machined the head, etc etc. I've heard that if you rebuild the top of the engine the bottom goes out. Well, that's exactly what just happened. One of our pistons blew and so now the engine needs to have the bottom rebuilt. Or we repower.

I understand that it will cost about $10K to rebuild our existing engine and it will have to be removed to do it. So that's what got me thinking about repowering. I can get a brand new Yanmar 4JH4-TE in Seattle for $11,800. The issue is the outrageous price to install it. I got a quote from a local shop here for $14,000 to install it and $2,400 in miscellaneous parts. The labor quote was for 127 hours and three weeks in the month of May. 127 hours! When I heard that I thought maybe they planned to install and remove it once a week for three weeks until they got it just right.

I'm at a loss. You can buy a lot for $28K. A new car, part of a college education, a down payment on a house. Maybe I should just wait until December when I can get a shop to do it for half as much? Maybe I should hire some out of work mechanic off Craigslist? Maybe I take a month off and try to do it myself... I rebuilt a 4-108 once in my youth. Maybe I take the boat out to deep water and cut off a through hull hose?

Thoughts? Advice?

Really depends on what it includes complete new engine beds because it mounts differently? New thru hulls and peacocks? Cutting out bulkheads

[jgbrown]

Originally Posted by SailingYoungs

I have a 2003 Bavaria 49. We love the boat and want to keep it. Last summer we had an issue with the Volvo TMD-22 where the turbo corroded, got stuck in the open position and then it blew the head gasket. So, we had the top end rebuilt, new turbo, new injectors, machined the head, etc etc. I've heard that if you rebuild the top of the engine the bottom goes out. Well, that's exactly what just happened. One of our pistons blew and so now the engine needs to have the bottom rebuilt. Or we repower.

I understand that it will cost about $10K to rebuild our existing engine and it will have to be removed to do it. So that's what got me thinking about repowering. I can get a brand new Yanmar 4JH4-TE in Seattle for $11,800. The issue is the outrageous price to install it. I got a quote from a local shop here for $14,000 to install it and $2,400 in miscellaneous parts. The labor quote was for 127 hours and three weeks in the month of May. 127 hours! When I heard that I thought maybe they planned to install and remove it once a week for three weeks until they got it just right.

I'm at a loss. You can buy a lot for $28K. A new car, part of a college education, a down payment on a house. Maybe I should just wait until December when I can get a shop to do it for half as much? Maybe I should hire some out of work mechanic off Craigslist? Maybe I take a month off and try to do it myself... I rebuilt a 4-108 once in my youth. Maybe I take the boat out to deep water and cut off a through hull hose?

Thoughts? Advice?

Really depends on what is involved I'd think.

Boat on the hard the entire time, price including the haulout?
Complete new engine beds because it mounts differently? New thru hulls and peacocks? Cutting out bulkheads and putting in new ones?

Totally re gelcoating the bilges?


For a basic repower that is high, if it includes the other work not so much.

labor seems a touch high too... at 127 hours that's 110$/hr does that include tax?

A shop that is charging half rate in the winter or an out of work mechanic may not be the best choices.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by jgbrown

Totally re gelcoating the bilges?

Huh!

That would be a waste of money. A layer of epoxy would be better. Plus one would want to use epoxy anyway for strength and to avoid the flammable fumes.

[Target9000]

We repowered our boat switching make of engine Perkins M50 -> Beta Marine 38. I'm no mechanic. I just couldn't stomach the cost of the labor and wanted to see and learn how it is done anyway. In the process we changed the fuel tanks, prop, exhaust system, raw water intake, stringers and mounts.

I have to say it was easier than I expected. Many people go on and on about how difficult a repower can be, but in our case it wasn't that hard, it just took some time and research.

Beta is nice because they'll work with you on the mounts so if you want mounts that will fit with your old yanmar mounts then they'll do that. The hardest part for someone having never done it before is probably just the alignment.

I would suggest considering doing it yourself, or possibly doing all the prep (out with the old) and post work (hooking up water/fuel/exhaust) and just letting the yard drop it in and align it for you. I also don't think you need to take a month off to do it unless you're on some sort of very tight timeline. My wife and I did ours on weekends and some weekdays in under a month.

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by SailingYoungs

I have a 2003 Bavaria 49. We love the boat and want to keep it. Last summer we had an issue with the Volvo TMD-22 where the turbo corroded, got stuck in the open position and then it blew the head gasket. So, we had the top end rebuilt, new turbo, new injectors, machined the head, etc etc. I've heard that if you rebuild the top of the engine the bottom goes out. Well, that's exactly what just happened. One of our pistons blew and so now the engine needs to have the bottom rebuilt. Or we repower.

I understand that it will cost about $10K to rebuild our existing engine and it will have to be removed to do it. So that's what got me thinking about repowering. I can get a brand new Yanmar 4JH4-TE in Seattle for $11,800. The issue is the outrageous price to install it. I got a quote from a local shop here for $14,000 to install it and $2,400 in miscellaneous parts. The labor quote was for 127 hours and three weeks in the month of May. 127 hours! When I heard that I thought maybe they planned to install and remove it once a week for three weeks until they got it just right.

I'm at a loss. You can buy a lot for $28K. A new car, part of a college education, a down payment on a house. Maybe I should just wait until December when I can get a shop to do it for half as much? Maybe I should hire some out of work mechanic off Craigslist? Maybe I take a month off and try to do it myself... I rebuilt a 4-108 once in my youth. Maybe I take the boat out to deep water and cut off a through hull hose?

Thoughts? Advice?

I can only give you my couch captain input.

Looks like a very nice boat and such boats are expensive to buy and maintain, so $28k seems expensive, but price one with a good engine ($180k?)

When it needs to be low-cost, DIY is the only real solution.
And fixing what you have is generally a lot easier than a repower.
So option A take the motor out yourself, and have the block redone, put it back in. Best cheap option. And I can't understand how a shortblock redo is $10k, take to a machine shop, don't tell them it was in a boat..
My guess is its only the rings are shot, can't cost so much to fix that,
the boat guys will want to sell you a entire new shortblock.

In another thread, I pointed out the option B, a $2.2k new diesel, https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.a...atname=engines
which will involve a lot more DIY work/fab, but gotta be under $10k.

And finally, might consider the E option of electric drive, more complex undertaking, but a better long-term solution in my opinion.

JackB

[gjordan]

Since you have already spent a lot on a new turbo and top overhaul, you might want to rebuild the bottom end, but before you do, get the part numbers for the pistons and rings, rods, bearings and take them to a good parts house and cross reference them with Volkswagon parts. Yes, I said Volkswagon!. I had an older Volvo diesel car that needed an overhaul. The machine shop said the engine was made by VW and Volvo charged way more for the identical parts than VW. Part numbers were the same, just with a VW in front of the number. I delivered a 50 something foot ketch that had a 6 cylinder Volvo, and it looked identical to the VW/Volvo engine in the car. It is a chance that the 4 cylinder Volvo may be a basic VW diesel with a different label on it. Even though I agree that turbos dont really belong on sailboat engines, they will still last a long time if treated right. One of the biggest killer of turbos is shutting them down when still hot. Turbos are part of the exhaust system, so they run very very hot, but still have an oil supply. If you shut the engine down when the turbo is still hot, the oil bakes on to the bearing surfaces, and eventually causes failure. I believe that all owners manuals for turbo engine will say to idle the engine for a minute or 2 before shutting down. Maybe the VW connection will work, maybe not, but it would help to keep your costs down if you decide to overhaul._____My 2 cents worth._____Grant.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by gjordan

Since you have already spent a lot on a new turbo and top overhaul, you might want to rebuild the bottom end, but before you do, get the part numbers for the pistons and rings, rods, bearings and take them to a good parts house and cross reference them with Volkswagon parts. Yes, I said Volkswagon!. I had an older Volvo diesel car that needed an overhaul. The machine shop said the engine was made by VW and Volvo charged way more for the identical parts than VW. Part numbers were the same, just with a VW in front of the number. I delivered a 50 something foot ketch that had a 6 cylinder Volvo, and it looked identical to the VW/Volvo engine in the car. It is a chance that the 4 cylinder Volvo may be a basic VW diesel with a different label on it. Even though I agree that turbos dont really belong on sailboat engines, they will still last a long time if treated right. One of the biggest killer of turbos is shutting them down when still hot. Turbos are part of the exhaust system, so they run very very hot, but still have an oil supply. If you shut the engine down when the turbo is still hot, the oil bakes on to the bearing surfaces, and eventually causes failure. I believe that all owners manuals for turbo engine will say to idle the engine for a minute or 2 before shutting down. Maybe the VW connection will work, maybe not, but it would help to keep your costs down if you decide to overhaul._____My 2 cents worth._____Grant.

Yes and no!
What will the availability of parts be in the coming years? Unless you plan to sell it in the near future. Then yes a lower end would make the best sense. There would be no shifting around of fittings, exhaust, wiring and mounts.

But also what kind of condition is the engine room in? Does it need a major refit. IAW's are all the hoses shot and stuff rusty every where. If so, a new motor would force a clean up.

[SV Sedna]

I seem to remember when I was researching for my repower in 2003 that the Volvo and Caterpillar engines were based on the Perkins Sabre long blocks. Have you looked at the Perkins M92B? It might just drop in with little work required for new motor mounts and beds.

Perkins Sabre M92B - Description - Marine Diesel Engine for Leisure Craft and Commercial Craft Applications

I chose a Yanmar 4jhe3-te and wish I would have stayed with a low RPM, high torque naturally aspirated solution.

Yanmar is expensive for parts, the high RPM are noisy as hell and the fuel consumption is higher than I would like now that fuel is $4-5 a gallon.

Also remember to take delivery in PDX if you can to save a few more bucks.

Just some thoughts from my learning curve.

[jgbrown]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

Huh!

That would be a waste of money. A layer of epoxy would be better. Plus one would want to use epoxy anyway for strength and to avoid the flammable fumes.

Perhaps. Depends what you want, some people want the factory look, but new again and are willing to spend the money.
All decisions affect the price in one way or another from what I see.