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Old 11-02-2014, 08:59   #31
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

OP UPDATE:

Thank you to all who have participated in this thread. As you can imagine, I am beyond frustrated with this. The engine was less than 130 hours old, properly maintained, properly used. My personal opinion is that there is no ethical reason for why I should have to repower without assistance from either Seaworthy insurance or Yanmar.

The first survey of the damage had multiple points of inaccuracy. Seaworthy recognized that, and has assigned a new surveyor to complete a new analysis. He is sending the cracked head to a metallurgist.

In the meantime, I'm waiting for my mechanic to provide me with an estimate for if I have to pay for this myself....
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:06   #32
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

Eric
Yea, no doubt frustrated. Let us know how it works out.
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:12   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34
If you had paid for an extended warranty I would have my Lawyer write a nice letter stating a dropped valve seat would be due to either improper machining or materials out of spec. Even if the valve stem head was faulty, the valve seat should not have dropped.

Yanmar has a reputation for building good engines. That may have been so 20-30 years ago. But WAY too many Yanmar engines have failures now a days.

Looks like its Beta engine time.

I've owned two Yanmars, a 3QM that broke a valve rocker bearing where it was cast at the valve tower and my current 3gm with the typical early 90's piston land failures. For me that's a 100% failure rate.

Sort of sounds like Yanmar has some QC issues with materials to me.
Wisdom, as usual, from Sailorchic. Valves flying out of the head at 130 hours is totally a manufacturing defect. Although I am not a complaining kind of person, I would definitely make a big stink out of this. This is outrageous. Yanmar should cover this.
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:37   #34
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

If you dropped a valve at 130 hours and less than 5? years on a Chevy, Ford, Honda, John Deere tractor or boat engine, Kubota tractor ..... most any reputable manufacturer in the world would be embarrassed and fix the thing. If it wasn't run out of oil or coolant Yanmar needs to step up. Yanmar, your market share is shrinking by the day.......
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Old 11-02-2014, 13:42   #35
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

Keep pushing the fact that you did everything that is reasonable and customary to maintain your boat in proper working order and the loss could not have been foreseen or attributed to anything within your control and any reasonable person would expect the duty cycle of a marine diesel, even one that is not maintained as you have, to last at minimum 5-10X what it has. Also, discuss the case with a maritime attorney - consultations are free and you can get a lot of information in 30 minutes.

You may want to hire your own surveyor. And at least have someone come pump some oil out (and able to certify they did so) and send it to a lab of your choice for analysis.

Just for grins, check the work-order from the mechanic who did the adjustments on the valves. Not sure if that was breached, but if he didn't adjust properly, he could be blamed. But what is important to look for on the work-order is what a lot of yards do with a hold harmless agreement and an agreement to waive your right to subrogation. This is a bad thing and even grounds to cancel a insurance policy since you already agreed with your insurance company to always allow them to subrogate in your behalf. - Read San Diego Log Online ask a maritime attorney for information, also a good place to ask about your issue.
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Old 11-02-2014, 14:03   #36
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

I'm in the process of looking for a used boat and reading this just
put back a good old Atomic Four into the mix. I had one in my
older Ericson and it was running well at 25 years old. Never really
got used to gasoline on a sailboat but these kind of stories give me the jitters about
"New Engines" I just can't believe your getting so screwed. If by
chance I get to buy a new boat someday I will remember your story
and insist on a 5 year warranty on everything or No Deal
My friend had to have a new Sail Drive but in on his 2 year old
Jenneau 45 and after many hours of finger pointing he got it for free.
Did you get any dealer support? If I were you I'd make a scene at the
Spring Boat Show coming your way in April. Scare some customers off
and you'll get their attention.
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Old 11-02-2014, 15:16   #37
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

Eric,
Post this link and concern on Yanmar's facebook page. This should be one way to get thier attention.
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Old 11-02-2014, 15:44   #38
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

For the life of me I can't see a mechanic messing up a valve job bad enough to break a head off. Burn a valve sure, tight enough to cause interference, would be hard to do by a even a half as* mechanic. Is it possible, yes. But not likely.

Gee I learned how to adjust valves when I was about 12. Its not that hard, least with pushrod engines. If the valve stems are still attached to the springs by the keepers, then its 99% odds that its a materials stress crack failure of the valve head. Plus another failure that the valve seat came out. It is possible that the valve seat being loose could have caused the valve head to fail.

I assume the valve springs, keepers, etc were fine.

With 130 hours on the engine, In my mind the finger points firmly to a manufacturers material defect. Caused by either a loose or bad valve seat or a bad valve stem. BTW that's two failures, not one. As the seat was loose, I would look at that first. Either way its the manufacturers fault.

Yanmar really needs to step up and do the right thing. They are quickly getting a bad rep on CF.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:08   #39
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by eisselhardt View Post
OP UPDATE:

Thank you to all who have participated in this thread. As you can imagine, I am beyond frustrated with this. The engine was less than 130 hours old, properly maintained, properly used. My personal opinion is that there is no ethical reason for why I should have to repower without assistance from either Seaworthy insurance or Yanmar.

The first survey of the damage had multiple points of inaccuracy. Seaworthy recognized that, and has assigned a new surveyor to complete a new analysis. He is sending the cracked head to a metallurgist.

In the meantime, I'm waiting for my mechanic to provide me with an estimate for if I have to pay for this myself....
I would prepare your course of action flowchart with a "unethical response" path too...
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Old 12-02-2014, 19:53   #40
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

Nice of all the CF forum members to jump in against Yanmar. I find something possibly a bit awry here. So as you said, "the first survey had a number of inaccuracies in it"---hmmmmmmmm. Just what inaccuracies? If someone failed to properly winterize the engine and that is reported to have cracked the head (not an uncommon way to crack a head--certainly more likely than a valve sticking) is something like that the "inaccuracies"? A neighbor had an independent mechanic improperly install a Yanmar--he put the engine below the water line with no loop in the exhaust, managed to bend a rod when water predictably ran back into a cylinder--and Yanmar (Mack Boring) was gracious enough to split the cost of a replacement. Personally, I thought this was way over the top in terms of their liability. There is a lot you can do in a few hours on an engine to destroy it, including improper installation, maintenance and abuse. I find too little information here to indict Yanmar.

I have installed a Yanmar, but have no other connection to them other than a satisfied customer.
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Old 12-02-2014, 21:04   #41
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete the Cat View Post
Nice of all the CF forum members to jump in against Yanmar. I find something possibly a bit awry here. So as you said, "the first survey had a number of inaccuracies in it"---hmmmmmmmm. Just what inaccuracies? If someone failed to properly winterize the engine and that is reported to have cracked the head (not an uncommon way to crack a head--certainly more likely than a valve sticking) is something like that the "inaccuracies"?
Sounds like we reading two different threads. The OP's engine failed at the end of last years season, before freezing conditions. Plus the engine came in his 2010 sailboat he purchased new and the engine only had 130 hours on it.

Gee other then change the oil and filter there's not a lot of scheduled maintenance required at 130 hours. Its not a sticking valve or a cracked head, but a dropped valve and a dropped valve seat with a cracked block. While a cracked block can be caused by water freezing, it can also be caused by mechanical damage as well. As could be the case with the a dropped valve and seat. Generally a valve seat just should never drop as its an interference fit. It was the valve seat being loose that sounded very odd to me.

All engines have issues from time to time. But 130 hours is about the same as 5000 miles in a car (average driving). No one ever expects any engine to fail after only 130 hours. Specially one costing $10k-$12K or one installed in a factory production boat.

Myself I've experienced two failures on the two boats with yanmar engines. Mind you one was only $56 to fix, but it could have been a multi-thousand dollar towing bill had I not found a way to run it on two cylinders, as it happened 20 miles off shore with no wind. The other was my well documented piston land failure, which actually happened during warm weather. Sure mine happened at 1100 hours But that's only about 50k miles in a car. I would have expected a Diesel to run for at least 4k hours without failure.

Others here on CF also have had low hour Yanmar engine failures. The nice thing about CF is we get to chat about our engine problems. It quickly becoming clear that Yanmar tend to have more failures then some of the other brands. Not sure Yanmar really cares. Pretty sure they don't care.

That I can not buy Yanmar parts online, in California, in this day and age speaks volumes. When I do order parts from the local dealer after driving two hours to get there, the distributor has to order them from the warehouse in Georgia and I get dinged for shipping costs to the distributor and dealer is crazy. Not a great way to do business.

So yes some of us are picking on yanmar. They need to wake up and provide real service to their customers. Myself, should I ever need a repower I will strongly consider Beta and ditch Yanmar.
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Old 12-02-2014, 21:07   #42
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

OK, let's look at this logically:

1) You aren't going to get anywhere with Beneteau. Yanmar probably practically gives engines away to the boat manufacturers. They make their money on parts. Why an IHI turbocharger that costs $220 on a VW that is essentially the same on a Yanmar costs $2200, should explain the obvious. Hell, I'm paying $80 each for impellers now!

2) Yanmar doesn't care. People don't repower with Yanmar. Yanmar sells to boat manufacturers. Even our local Yanmar dealer recommends Beta for repowering. They aren't responsible for the engine you have, only the one you put in.

3) Your insurance company isn't going to cover this. Your car insurance company wouldn't in a similar situation.

4) I still have a hard time understanding how this happened. I mean, as much as I don't like how Yanmar operates their business in the US, they usually make a good product. If someone can point to a REAL manufacturing defect, you should be able to make some inroads with Yanmar.

Just my $0.02.
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Old 13-02-2014, 08:34   #43
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

As in many situations on forums, all the information is not available, this starts the responses from those who have an ax to grind, you have those that like to brag about themselves, those that like to do comparisons to unrelated field and on it goes. Hopefully the OP gets satifactory results and shares with all - all the details.
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Old 14-02-2014, 09:42   #44
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

FYI,

If you need parts for a Yanmar engine, try tractor dealers. My JD tractor uses a Yanmar so JD carries parts. This might not work for boat related parts though. I know other tractor brands use Yanmar besides JD.

Later,
Dan
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Old 14-02-2014, 18:27   #45
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Re: Yanmar 4JH4AE catastrophic breakdown experience

Many smaller JD machines have Yanmar engines, my JD997 lawnmower has a three cyl Yanmar engine developing 31 hp at 3,000 RPM. The Yanmars in the JD tractors have excellent reputations and I would have though running in the dirt would be harder than on a sailboat?
Funny thing is the boat I'm buying has a much smaller, less powerful engine than my lawnmower That's just wrong
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