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Old 21-07-2015, 15:43   #16
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
CD is old and not produced anymore, use CH, CI, or CJ. Make sure it's a "C", that's the designation for diesel engines.

http://www.api.org/~/media/files/cer...glish_2013.pdf
As stated in that document, CJ (in fact it is called CJ-4) will not last long with diesel that has way more than 15ppm sulfur, as commonly found in the southern Caribbean (I think that is where OP is located). I guess the TBN math is at work on that statement.

If I cannot find CD I look for CF, which is a drop-in replacement for CD and is not restricted to low sulfur fuel. The "Shell Rotella T1" monograde sold in many if not most countries meets CF.

By the way, most real cruisers will stick to warm areas where you do not need multigrade oil. Monograde oil wil keep viscosity at operating temperature much longer becayuse it does not rely on additives that degrade oiver time. I am a convert after having seen tests of the oil in my own boat.
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Old 21-07-2015, 18:37   #17
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

rotella straight 30 grade is what you want for your transmission (recommended by numerous mechaniscs and confirmed by the Mack Boring diesel school guys "if you cant get Yanmar oil"} I also used it in the engine in the southern caribbean. why use multigrade when the temperature is never below 70?
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Old 23-07-2015, 13:30   #18
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I've read the article before, don't have any idea who Cox is though. Heck I can show you internet articles that prove the pyramids were built by aliens too, written by people with Doctorates no less, yet I don't believe aliens built the pyramids.
I've built engines for the last 40 years or so, from aircraft engines to drag racing motorcycle engines, to JD backhoes and a few Marine engines. I've never seen any harm that can be contributed to Syn oil, yet I have dis-assembled engines with tens of thousands of hours on them to find them with little or no varnish or sludge that ran Syn oil.
Do you really believe that article where it says he ruined his engine by motoring for 30 hours?
He tried twice to hone his engine un-successfully, only to have the cylinders glaze, both times? Yet I'm sure there must be thousands or sailboats running Syn oil in their engines with no such catastrophie? I just came off of a two week trip where I motored far more than I liked, well more than 30 hours straight, using Syn oil, with no bad effect.
But what really puzzles me is how TBN can be linked to glazed cylinder walls, deposit build up on piston heads and the like?

Now I've said repeatedly that running Syn oil may be of no real benefit to most of our relatively low RPM, low HP per cu in engines that do not I believe put excessive heat into their oils, especially if you only run 100 hours a year or less. But anyone that claims that running Syn oil in a Diesel for 30 hours will ruin it, loses credibility to me.
I've put ten times that many hours on my engine, all with Rotella T6, yet it's not ruined, how could that be?
I'll continue to use Rotella T6 in my engine, you continue to use what you like, and I'll bet as long as we both change it regularly and treat our engines well, we both get good service out of our engines.

Honestly I believe that the best value in oils is probably a straight weight oil with a good detergent package, anything more than that is probably a waste of money in most of our engines, but heck I like when I pull the valve cover off to see no sludge or varnish and good Syn oils give me that.

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I couldnt agree more - I have roughly 2000hrs on my 15yr old 3JH3 running Mobil 1 5W40 in the engine and Kanzaki trans. No oil added between services and clean as a whistle inside. Good oil and filters go along way - along with making sure you always get your engine up to proper temperature before shutting it down will give you your best chance for a happy engine.

Cheers
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Old 23-07-2015, 16:17   #19
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

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I couldnt agree more - I have roughly 2000hrs on my 15yr old 3JH3 running Mobil 1 5W40 in the engine and Kanzaki trans. No oil added between services and clean as a whistle inside. Good oil and filters go along way - along with making sure you always get your engine up to proper temperature before shutting it down will give you your best chance for a happy engine.

Cheers
I'm also a great believer in synthetic oil. Mobil One is about the only brand readily available here. I use it in both my cars and I used to use it in my seawater cooled 2GM 20. However the cost of of a 5 litre pack of Mobil One Delvac was NZ$100 for a 5 litre pack the last time I purchased it and that only on order from the Mobil depot. The Yanmar branded recommended oil from the local Yanmar agent is around NZ$30 / 40 for a 5 litre pack. Seawater cooled engines run at a lower temperature and I believe that synthetic oil good as it is, is overkill. I could change the Yanmar oil 3 times for the cost one synthetic oil change if I wanted to. Mobil One for autos is more economically priced. I once had a Suzuki Jeep. It's breather between the valve cover and intake would keep getting blocked by sludge causing blow past symptoms. When I changed to Mobil One it was always clean.
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Old 23-07-2015, 21:25   #20
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I'm also a great believer in synthetic oil. Mobil One is about the only brand readily available here. I use it in both my cars and I used to use it in my seawater cooled 2GM 20. However the cost of of a 5 litre pack of Mobil One Delvac was NZ$100 for a 5 litre pack the last time I purchased it and that only on order from the Mobil depot. The Yanmar branded recommended oil from the local Yanmar agent is around NZ$30 / 40 for a 5 litre pack. Seawater cooled engines run at a lower temperature and I believe that synthetic oil good as it is, is overkill. I could change the Yanmar oil 3 times for the cost one synthetic oil change if I wanted to. Mobil One for autos is more economically priced. I once had a Suzuki Jeep. It's breather between the valve cover and intake would keep getting blocked by sludge causing blow past symptoms. When I changed to Mobil One it was always clean.
Hi Graham

We think the same on this - $75 aussie for 6 qts on evilbay for me. But it makes me happy and the engine looks new when I do the rocker clearances.....

I dont think that there is anything wrong with using a monograde but the fast oil flow on a cold start also tips me to the multigrade/synthetics. Even my fresh water cooled JH only runs at 180F when at temperature which is relatively cool when compared to on road engines.

Sorry a little off topic but I run the 5W50 in both our cars with 15000km changes and the wifes supercharged 1.9l has 460000km on it now with it only needing 0.5l added between services.

Cheers
Tom
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Old 24-07-2015, 03:05   #21
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I've read the article before, don't have any idea who Cox is though. Heck I can show you internet articles that prove the pyramids were built by aliens too, written by people with Doctorates no less, yet I don't believe aliens built the pyramids.
I've built engines for the last 40 years or so, from aircraft engines to drag racing motorcycle engines, to JD backhoes and a few Marine engines. I've never seen any harm that can be contributed to Syn oil, yet I have dis-assembled engines with tens of thousands of hours on them to find them with little or no varnish or sludge that ran Syn oil.
Do you really believe that article where it says he ruined his engine by motoring for 30 hours?
He tried twice to hone his engine un-successfully, only to have the cylinders glaze, both times? Yet I'm sure there must be thousands or sailboats running Syn oil in their engines with no such catastrophie? I just came off of a two week trip where I motored far more than I liked, well more than 30 hours straight, using Syn oil, with no bad effect.
But what really puzzles me is how TBN can be linked to glazed cylinder walls, deposit build up on piston heads and the like?

Now I've said repeatedly that running Syn oil may be of no real benefit to most of our relatively low RPM, low HP per cu in engines that do not I believe put excessive heat into their oils, especially if you only run 100 hours a year or less. But anyone that claims that running Syn oil in a Diesel for 30 hours will ruin it, loses credibility to me.
I've put ten times that many hours on my engine, all with Rotella T6, yet it's not ruined, how could that be?
I'll continue to use Rotella T6 in my engine, you continue to use what you like, and I'll bet as long as we both change it regularly and treat our engines well, we both get good service out of our engines.

Honestly I believe that the best value in oils is probably a straight weight oil with a good detergent package, anything more than that is probably a waste of money in most of our engines, but heck I like when I pull the valve cover off to see no sludge or varnish and good Syn oils give me that.


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Vyv Cox is a respected technical writer for Yachting Monthly and other European publications, who happens to be a professional petroleum engineer.

But don't take his word for it -- Yanmar says the same thing.

Also Mack Boring.

The basic fallacy is in thinking that the choice of oil is a one-dimensional continuum from worse to better. It doesn't work that way. Different oils are just different, and a better oil for one type of engine may be worse or even harmful to a different type of engine.

That is why you shouldn't just dream up your own oil specification -- you should follow the specification of the manufacturer. Your engine was designed for a specific type of oil, and you are not doing it any favor by using something which you in your own judgement without benefit of any engineering knowledge think might be better.

Synthetic oil has these really long, tough molecules which resist heat and wear much better than petroleum oil. In high stress applications, oil needs to be changed because the molecules break down, and synthetic oil lubricates better and lasts longer, and can let you extend the oil change interval without harm. I use synthetic oil in all my modern cars (not my old Porsche or MG's, however), in my snowmobile, and in all engines where the manufacturer specifies it.

But old design boat diesels can't use this property of synthetic oil at all. They run at low temperatures and very low mechanical stress. They never wear out the molecules of petroleum oil -- the life of oil is limited by completely different factors. Namely soot and acid, especially soot. They produce much more soot than high speed, high temperature, highly turbocharged common rail diesels, so oil designed for these engines is mis-specified for our diesels.

Our diesels need specific additives made to keep the soot in suspension, and most importantly, frequent change intervals. If you want to do better for your engine, spend your money on changing the oil more frequently.

The new common rail boat diesels are designed differently, with higher turbo pressures and more efficient, cleaner combustion. They produce less soot but more heat and stress. These engines can get benefit from synthetic oil, and in fact I believe that Yanmar REQUIRES synthetic oil in their common rail engines (while at the same time forbidding synthetic oil in their older diesels). I like these new engines and my next boat, if I ever have one, and if I have a choice, will have an engine like the Yanmar 6BY3-160 (this beauty: Leisure Engines - Yanmar Marine). I will use synthetic oil in that motor.

But synthetic oil in engines not designed for it is not only useless, it can be actually harmful. Why do you guys think you know better than the manfuacturer and every actual engineer who has ever written on the subject?
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Old 24-07-2015, 07:01   #22
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

Dockhead, believe it or not we agree on almost every point, the point we differ on is that Syn oil will harm old design engines. I don't believe it will, and honestly don't think Yanmar says anything really, except use their branded oil, for very obvious reasons.
I don't know of any engine manufacturer that manufacturers their own oil or even filters. In fact I do know it's not un-common for the actual manufacturer of those products to change from time to time, based on price paid by the manufacturer.
Truth is, there are very few un-acceptable oils being sold, but some oils are better than others. I chose to use what I consider to be a very good oil, even though I'm sure under normal circumstances, it's not necessary, as you say I feel pretty sure myself it's soot that trips our need to change oil, even bargain oil probably hasn't begun to break down, but gets loaded with soot. But you know better oils handle soot better than others, don't you?
Even the name Synthetic is really sort of a catch all name, some are, some really aren't, and some are blends. Just like the viscosity, normal oils use viscosity improvers to get that multi-vis property, and the VI is among the first things to break down in an oils additive package, while good Syn oils have no VI additive, it's just the property of the Syn oil to not thin out or thicken as much with temperature. But not all Syn oils are the same.

Marketing at least in the US, is just really insulting, outright lies, so you do have to verify. Things like Ford's Eco-Boost, really? What nonsense is that?
Ever seen the Monty Python skit on Krelm toothpaste? reminds me of that.

So trying to group all Syn oils into one is sort of like saying all mono hulls have this or that weakness, while all Cats have another weakness.

Now what does have my curiosity is Sulfur level, it's my belief whether correct or not that the modern, more expensive oils sold in the US, may have a lower TBN, due to only ULSD being sold here and for emissions regulations, and if your where high sulfur fuel is sold, then those oils may not be the best oil to use?
Seems maybe that the best oil to use may differ based on type of fuel available?
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Old 24-07-2015, 07:09   #23
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

For what it's worth, I love common rails, I was an early adopter with my Duramax Diesel pickup. Common rails really lower NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) to almost spark ignition level, but come with very sophisticated computer controls and extremely high fuel pressures, and require extremely clean and pure fuel. Even tiny bits of dirt at 30,000 PSI or so, will cut the tips on very expensive injectors like a water jet.
A set of re-built injectors for my Duramax were $3,500, and took me all weekend to install, but they are buried in the head to reduce NVH.
Only point is I think being an old guy, with aspiration of cruising way off the beaten path, I'll stick to my WWII era design Diesel and accept the higher noise, vibration, lower power and efficiency, for the hope of easy repairs.

Maybe the Marine common rails have lower fuel pressures?
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Old 24-07-2015, 07:31   #24
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Dockhead, believe it or not we agree on almost every point, the point we differ on is that Syn oil will harm old design engines. I don't believe it will, and honestly don't think Yanmar says anything really, except use their branded oil, for very obvious reasons.
I don't know of any engine manufacturer that manufacturers their own oil or even filters. In fact I do know it's not un-common for the actual manufacturer of those products to change from time to time, based on price paid by the manufacturer.
Truth is, there are very few un-acceptable oils being sold, but some oils are better than others. I chose to use what I consider to be a very good oil, even though I'm sure under normal circumstances, it's not necessary, as you say I feel pretty sure myself it's soot that trips our need to change oil, even bargain oil probably hasn't begun to break down, but gets loaded with soot. But you know better oils handle soot better than others, don't you?
Even the name Synthetic is really sort of a catch all name, some are, some really aren't, and some are blends. Just like the viscosity, normal oils use viscosity improvers to get that multi-vis property, and the VI is among the first things to break down in an oils additive package, while good Syn oils have no VI additive, it's just the property of the Syn oil to not thin out or thicken as much with temperature. But not all Syn oils are the same.

Marketing at least in the US, is just really insulting, outright lies, so you do have to verify. Things like Ford's Eco-Boost, really? What nonsense is that?
Ever seen the Monty Python skit on Krelm toothpaste? reminds me of that.

So trying to group all Syn oils into one is sort of like saying all mono hulls have this or that weakness, while all Cats have another weakness.

Now what does have my curiosity is Sulfur level, it's my belief whether correct or not that the modern, more expensive oils sold in the US, may have a lower TBN, due to only ULSD being sold here and for emissions regulations, and if your where high sulfur fuel is sold, then those oils may not be the best oil to use?
Seems maybe that the best oil to use may differ based on type of fuel available?
Well, when they make CD or CF4 synthetic, I'll use it. That's the oil our engines were designed for, and a different spec is not a "better" oil -- just different. It's like buying a cow and deciding that you'll feed it steak, rather than grass, because steak is more expensive and "better". This is the basic fallacy. Synthetic oil made for common rail diesels does not indeed handle soot better -- those engines produce on the contrary much less soot than ours do, and the additive package is tailored accordingly.

As to sulfur content of the fuel -- this also puzzles me, and I don't know the answer to it. The bad consequence of too high TBN is also described in the Vyv Cox article, but too low TBN will also, logically, have bad consequences. The only sure-fire answer I know is to change the oil frequently enough that the additive package can't become depleted. That might be even more frequently than every 100 hours, if you are doing a lot of low speed motoring or motor-sailing (which produces a lot of soot) like I do.
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Old 24-07-2015, 07:40   #25
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

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For what it's worth, I love common rails, I was an early adopter with my Duramax Diesel pickup. Common rails really lower NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) to almost spark ignition level, but come with very sophisticated computer controls and extremely high fuel pressures, and require extremely clean and pure fuel. Even tiny bits of dirt at 30,000 PSI or so, will cut the tips on very expensive injectors like a water jet.
A set of re-built injectors for my Duramax were $3,500, and took me all weekend to install, but they are buried in the head to reduce NVH.
Only point is I think being an old guy, with aspiration of cruising way off the beaten path, I'll stick to my WWII era design Diesel and accept the higher noise, vibration, lower power and efficiency, for the hope of easy repairs.

Maybe the Marine common rails have lower fuel pressures?

$3500! Wow.

I will certainly study this more before making my final decision. I also sail off the beaten track and plan to sail ever more off the beaten track when I have more time for it. Common rail marine engines are relatively new so it will be useful to see how reliable they turn out to be.

I am inclined to like them simply because they work better, like electronic fuel injection compared to carbs on gas engines. I am no expert, but a friend of mine who is, and who owned a large fuel injection shop, has explained to me in detail that common rail diesels are actually less, rather than more sensitive to bad fuel, and are inherently more reliable. That's just one opinion so I'm still open minded about it, but I am inclined to believe that common rail marine engines will be better, more efficient, more reliable, quieter, and smoother. It will be interesting if some people on here start to have some experience with them.

One misgiving I have about them, however, is what will happen in case of a lightning strike. My father's boat was struck by lightning in SW Florida which wiped out all the electronics and all electrical gear on board. He was able to get his old Westerbeke started, however, and got home by the seat of his pants. Query whether a common rail engine would have survived that.
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Old 24-07-2015, 08:01   #26
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

Call Yanmar and ask if their synthetic oil would be suitable for your engine.

I use synthetic because there is less engine wear and I sometimes do not have the time to change the oil after the prescribed number of hours if it were regular non-synthetic oil. For me greater engine longevity is worth the price difference. I wear out engines before they rust out.
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Old 24-07-2015, 09:04   #27
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Re: Which engine oil for Yanmar

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Call Yanmar and ask if their synthetic oil would be suitable for your engine.

I use synthetic because there is less engine wear and I sometimes do not have the time to change the oil after the prescribed number of hours if it were regular non-synthetic oil. For me greater engine longevity is worth the price difference. I wear out engines before they rust out.
Calling Yanmar is excellent advice. They will tell you to use only synthetic oil in their common rail engines, and never to use synthetic oil in their regular engines.

And in any case, synthetic oil will not allow you to extend oil change intervals in a regular diesel engine. The oil change interval is not determined by breakdown of the oil, but by accumulation of soot and acid and depletion of the additive package. A regular marine diesel operating at low load and temperature won't break down the oil molecules even in a 1000 hours, so synthetic oil's more resistant molecules don't do anything for you at all.

Yanmar calls for oil changes at 250 hours, and that might be ok for a workboat used mostly with a good load on it. I sure wouldn't go over that, though. And for sailboat engines, oil should be changed at least every 100 hours because of the horrible abuse sailboat duty is for a diesel engine -- infrequent, low temperature, and low load use.

Yanmar also says you should use the engine at full power every two hours if using at low RPM.
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