Westerbeke 46 rear seal

[zboss]

Here is a picture of the other side with what looks to be like a rubber surround welded to the seal...

[jimbunyard]

I think you've got the right seal; did you get both the seal and the sleeve that show in your screen clip? The sleeve is a light press fit on the crankshaft, and the seal rides against the sleeve, which is where the sealing takes place. Put another way, the OD of the sleeve should fit the ID of the seal, the ID of the sleeve should tightly fit the OD of the crankshaft. Don't mean to be pedantic, so pardon me if I am, I never know how much people know about this stuff

[zboss]

I have a seal kit like that in my possession. However, I do not have the item in the upper right. However, if what has been discussed is true, that the ring in the middle is the correct one, we can make the other piece out of standard gasket material.

If this is true, I am going to be seriously POed at my mechanic again - I showed him the kit, complete with all the parts and he rejected it.

If this is in fact the correct part this will be the second major screw up by this particular mechanic - the first one being when he failed to note a bolt keeping the oil sump on (which it took me - a complete engine moron - like two minutes to find).

[zboss]

Holy cow... I lied... I DO have that gasket.

[HappyMdRSailor]

HA HA!!!

I've read the latest posts a few times... And I'm still totally confused !

So we think we might actually have the right part (seal kit=rubber lip seal permanently bonded to metal housing) BUT... are missing a press on sleeve for the crank end???

Maybe if this actually the wrong part we start with this and find an engine to fit it???

[jimbunyard]

In the Mitsubishi parts catalog located at this address:

http://home.kpn.nl/verzameling/samof...anual4dq50.pdf

the seal assembly, which includes both seal and crankshaft seal sleeve, is P/N 30607-23013. The part number for the seal alone is 30607-22703, the sleeve alone is 30607-22804. You need both, one won't work without the other.

It seems I remember from my days at DDA (early 80's) that they supplied crank seals automatically with sleeves; it was apparently just assumed that if you were replacing the seal, a groove had been cut in the shaft.

I'm assuming the rear seal has never been replaced, so a sleeve hasn't been installed previously. (If it has you break it off with a sharp blow from a hammer and cold chisel, they're rather brittle.) A special tool is generally called for to install the sleeve, but a skilled mechanic can probably do it with a good block of hardwood and a hammer. (In case he's not skilled, the block is held so the grain of the wood is perpendicular to the axis of the crankshaft!)

Regarding the possible update referred to in the deleted post (thought it wasn't pertinent), I still think it's reasonably likely they've had one, but since you have an old style seal in-hand, if the sleeve is all you need to make it work, it seems simplest to go with that...

[HappyMdRSailor]

Seems like ya got it goin' on Jim...

Agreed... Have seen rear "oversize" seals before with sleeves... This begs the question: What does the crank wear look like at the seal?

Sooooooo... Use what ya got, and find yourself a sleeve to press on the crank...

I LOVE the title in the parts pdf

MAIN MOVING PART for the crank description! HA!

[zboss]

No go. The seal in the kit does not work with the Westerbeke. The westerebeke rear seal is in fact one piece. With that said... the ID of the seal and the seal lip seem to be a match, which does not do any good because I'm not going to destroying the one seal I do have - even though it leaks - to try and press in the metal portion.

Jim - thanks - I am going to order part #30607-23013... I am assuming the shafts are the same size!

The seal lip is worn away slightly on what appears to be the bottom; I assume that the alignment was just slightly off for so many years (we never had any alignment issue). Worst comes to worst... put the old one back in with that worn away part facing up

The lesson I have learned from this ordeal is to never haul your boat out unless you already have the spare parts on hand.

[Saltyhog]

I think Jim's got it! It had not occurred to me that the original seal was sealing directly to the shaft and not a sleeve. For installing the sleeve, a method that has worked for me when installing press fit bearing races, sleeves, etc.: Heat the sleeve in the oven to about 250 - 300 degrees F. Have everything ready at the engine to install it, and quickly take the sleeve from the oven to the shaft. It *may* just slip right on. It *will* go on easier than at room temp. Have some light oil on the shaft to make it slide on a bit easier. I've done this with bearing races on Harley engines, and it works well.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by zboss

No go. The seal in the kit does not work with the Westerbeke. So the NEW seal kit that you have that is 1/4" too big does NOT bolt up to the back of the block? The westerebeke rear seal is in fact one piece. With that said... the ID of the seal and the seal lip seem to be a match, which does not do any good because I'm not going to destroying the one seal I do have - even though it leaks - to try and press in the metal portion.

Are we on the same page?:
1. The old leaky worn seal rides right on the crank
2. The new seal you have is 1/4" ID too big to seal on the crank and needs a spacer sleeve to work...

??????????????

[jimbunyard]

Been off the turnip truck a little while now...
Might be one of the 'advantages' of not having an excess of funding.

The wear can be pretty substantial, especially in dusty environments. I've seen grooves almost a 1/16" deep. One used to be able to sidestep this by varying the depth of the seal in its' housing, but with the advent of double lip seals and tighter manufacturing tolerances, this possibility is disappearing.

But I don't think it matters for Z, because it doesn't appear that they offer it any other way. The logic is pretty good, they stock one seal/sleeve combination, when the sleeve gets worn, break it off and install new sleeve and seal, instant perfect seal.

Yeah, those Japanese (Swedish too) manuals are pretty funny. Check out the part about 'screwing of bolts' here:

http://www.samofa.nl/Samofa/Products...al%204DQ50.pdf

What they meant was torqueing the bolts, I guess they had a lousy thesaurus. It's actually a pretty good manual though.

Hate to hear what my translation into Japanese would sound like..

[HappyMdRSailor]

Mann...

It's starting to feel like we are trying to find a fix for the moon rover...

NASA didn't spec a Westerbeke did they???

[jimbunyard]

Is the seal shown in post 76 the new 30607-22703 seal? And does it fit into the same place on the block as the old seal?

If so, it is the correct seal, it just needs the 30607-22804 sleeve.

If you order the 30607-23013, what you'll be getting is a 30607-22703 seal, which you already have, and a 30607-22804 sleeve.

Sleeveing is the accepted way refurbishing the sealing surface on the crank (even if it doesn't need it), from what I see in the Mitsubishi parts manual, no one is going to offer any other alternative.




The 30607-22804 sleeve you would get from Mitsubishi should look something like this. The new seal will not work without it.


In the service manual here:

http://www.samofa.nl/Samofa/Products...al%204DQ50.pdf

on pages 101 and 102, the specific tools for installing the sleeve are shown.

I'm not saying you need them, just using it as a kind of reference.

Saltyhog's installation suggestions are good.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Is the seal shown in post 76 the new 30607-22703 seal? And does it fit into the same place on the block as the old seal?

If so, it is the correct seal, it just needs the 30607-22804 sleeve.

If you order the 30607-23013, what you'll be getting is a 30607-22703 seal, which you already have, and a 30607-22804 sleeve.

Sleeveing is the accepted way refurbishing the sealing surface on the crank (even if it doesn't need it), from what I see in the Mitsubishi parts manual, no one is going to offer any other alternative.




The 30607-22804 sleeve you would get from Mitsubishi should look something like this. The new seal will not work without it.


In the service manual here:

http://www.samofa.nl/Samofa/Products...al%204DQ50.pdf

on pages 101 and 102, the specific tools for installing the sleeve are shown.

I'm not saying you need them, just using it as a kind of reference.

Saltyhog's installation suggestions are good.

That's EXACTLY what a crank sleeve should look like... Popped plenty of them on in my heyday... Salty's install advice is spot on, except you need ice too... In your "previously prepared post success cocktail" Preferably a Mai Tai...

[zboss]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

Are we on the same page?:
1. The old leaky worn seal rides right on the crank
2. The new seal you have is 1/4" ID too big to seal on the crank and needs a spacer sleeve to work...

??????????????

The mitsubishi part does have matching bolt holes but the ID of the seal is too large...

Anyhow... this may be moot. I finally located an OEM part IN STOCK and I am having it overnighted. Hopefully this one does not require a sleeve.


That oil seal aligner on page 102 sounds important. I assumed you just kinda bolted it on. I hope the mechanic has that device