Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-07-2016, 23:20   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10
Volvo MD22

I have a Volvo MD22 diesel engine which I use in a 42ft Tayana yacht. It works like a charm and suits my needs. I am not sure how old it is, nor where to find the Engine name plate to find out the serial number. I would like to know how old it might be and if it is really a Volvo or a badge engineered other make. If it turns out to be old what might be the spares situation. No reply from Volvo.
Rgds Toddy
__________________

__________________
Toddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2016, 07:34   #2
Registered User
 
Tkeeth's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Nola
Boat: 97 Hunter 430 43 ft.
Posts: 359
Re: Volvo MD22

I have the same engine, there are different versions such as L, LA, LB and they were manufactured from the late 90'S to 2001 or 2002 from my research. It appears that all the components are rebranded so I assume so is the engine itself. As far as spares, its pretty all over the place, i only have minor issues with random things but do your research and you can find the original manufacturer due to high cost from Volvo. Bosch made alot of the electronics, and take care of your drive if you have the ms2 a __ as they are not fun to replace.
__________________

__________________
Tkeeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2016, 07:44   #3
Moderator
 
nigel1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Manchester, UK
Boat: Beneteau 473
Posts: 5,123
Re: Volvo MD22

The Volvo Perkins MD 22 is a re-badged Perkins Prima 50.

The turbo version of this engine (TMD22) was also used in a number of cards and small vans, notably Sherpa LDV, Austin Montego and Austin Maestro.

A lot of spare parts can be obtained through auto factors, but I imagine they are beginning to get rare.

Perkins will always be a cheaper supplier of spares than VP

Perkins Prima / MDi
__________________
Nigel
Beneteau 473
Manchester, UK
nigel1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2016, 16:58   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 194
Images: 1
Re: Volvo MD22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkeeth View Post
I have the same engine, there are different versions such as L, LA, LB and they were manufactured from the late 90'S to 2001 or 2002 from my research. It appears that all the components are rebranded so I assume so is the engine itself. As far as spares, its pretty all over the place, i only have minor issues with random things but do your research and you can find the original manufacturer due to high cost from Volvo. Bosch made alot of the electronics, and take care of your drive if you have the ms2 a __ as they are not fun to replace.
Does anyone know if the Volvo MD22L with MS2A gearbox can be replaced, more or less exactly (that is, without lots of fiddling with fit, etc.) by the Volvo D2-55 with MS25A gear? The engine mounting locations are the same, but I cannot work out if the MS25A gearbox, or other differences, will create installation issues when connecting to the shaft.

I'm trying to work out if it makes the most sense to put in a new Volvo or go with another engine maker. I realize that there's endless debate on which engines are best (my last boat had a Yanmar, which worked great). But I'm assuming -- dangerous with boats -- that slotting in a Volvo will be by far the easiest and thus save on costs and headaches. I should point out that the installation will be in an out-of-the-way place, so it won't be a simple matter if problems arise with the installation. It could take a couple weeks to get the right bolt, etc.
__________________
Lantau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2016, 07:20   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 581
Re: Volvo MD22

When Volvo Penta introduced the D2-55 engine it was designed to replace the various MD 22 models, so as you note, the engine flexible mounts were placed in the same location and heights as on the MD 22.

The difference you are going to encounter concerns the location of the gear box output flange. The fore and aft location of both gear box flanges is the same relative to the flex mount locations, but the amount of drop center is different and the angularity of the output flange is also slightly different.

The MS2A transmission has a drop center of 67 mm from the crankshaft center line to the output flange center line, and the MS25A transmission has a drop center of 110mm over the same distance. So, if you set the D2-55 on the same beds that the MD 22 sat on, the flange will be 43 mm too low. You will have to shim the engine up that amount.

Also the MS2A transmission has a down angle of 8 degrees to its output shaft, and the MS25A has an angle of 7 degrees. This means that the front end of the D2-55 engine will have to drop slightly to get the prop shaft coupling and the gearbox output coupling parallel to each other. In all probability this can be achieved with the flex mount threaded studs, but if not then the front shims will have to be thinned somewhat.

The exhaust outlet diameter is the same on both engines, but the MD 22 has its outlet on the Stb. side,while the D2-55 has its outlet on the port side. Throttle cables are also on opposite sides.

Hope this info helps. Feel free to respond if you have other questions.

DougR
__________________
DougR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2016, 21:14   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 194
Images: 1
Re: Volvo MD22

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougR View Post
When Volvo Penta introduced the D2-55 engine it was designed to replace the various MD 22 models, so as you note, the engine flexible mounts were placed in the same location and heights as on the MD 22.

The difference you are going to encounter concerns the location of the gear box output flange. The fore and aft location of both gear box flanges is the same relative to the flex mount locations, but the amount of drop center is different and the angularity of the output flange is also slightly different.

The MS2A transmission has a drop center of 67 mm from the crankshaft center line to the output flange center line, and the MS25A transmission has a drop center of 110mm over the same distance. So, if you set the D2-55 on the same beds that the MD 22 sat on, the flange will be 43 mm too low. You will have to shim the engine up that amount.

Also the MS2A transmission has a down angle of 8 degrees to its output shaft, and the MS25A has an angle of 7 degrees. This means that the front end of the D2-55 engine will have to drop slightly to get the prop shaft coupling and the gearbox output coupling parallel to each other. In all probability this can be achieved with the flex mount threaded studs, but if not then the front shims will have to be thinned somewhat.

The exhaust outlet diameter is the same on both engines, but the MD 22 has its outlet on the Stb. side,while the D2-55 has its outlet on the port side. Throttle cables are also on opposite sides.

Hope this info helps. Feel free to respond if you have other questions.

DougR
Thanks DougR. This is extremely helpful.

Your information makes me think that there's less value in going with a Volvo; it's probably going to require some work on the mounts anyway. That said, it's easier to shim than to make new mounts.

I wonder if there are other similarly sized engines out there, possibly different brands (but maybe from the same factory, perhaps) with identically placed mounting hardware. Different companies locally want to sell me different brands of engine, but I cannot help but think of potential problems getting those other brands to fit. (In my experience, such jobs always end up being far more complicated and time-consuming than anyone expects. It's a boat.)

One Volvo dealer offered to do this replacement using the existing/old transmission, but I assume that this would involve just as many issues and I really don't think it's smart economy to hang on to the old gearbox (which clunks anyway).

Thanks again for your help and for any more advice you might be able to give.
__________________
Lantau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 00:48   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,130
Re: Volvo MD22

Quote:
When Volvo Penta introduced the D2-55 engine it was designed to replace the various MD 22 models, so as you note, the engine flexible mounts were placed in the same location and heights as on the MD 22. ......
What an excellent post, Doug! Well done.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II southbound, stopping at all stations (not really, just sounded cool). Now in Newcastle, soon southward again.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 19:06   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 581
Re: Volvo MD22

Opps......Upon rereading I see that I wrote the wrong thing....I said you would have to lower the front of the new engine to get the gear box and prop shaft flanges parallel. That's incorrect. You will have to raise the front slightly. This can probably still be accomplished with the adjustment threads on the flex mount stud, but it would be best to just install a shim a few mm thick under the front flex mount.

In general, its best if the engine mount bracket can be kept toward the center of the adjustment range on the flex mount stud. It decreases the bending moment on the stud.

Regarding the idea of reusing your MS2A gear from the old engine on a new D2-55 engine, I would recommend against it. When the MS2A gear was used in combination with the MD22L, the gearbox was working near the upper end of its torque limit...50 HP @3000 RPM. If you mount the MS2 A gear on the D2-55 engine, with 55 HP@3000RPM you are increasing the gearbox input torque by 10%. That's a marginal application with a new gearbox, let alone one with many hours on it.
(Been down that road before) It's better to go with a new engine and a new gear.

So much to think about....

DougR
__________________
DougR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 15:48   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 194
Images: 1
Re: Volvo MD22

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougR View Post
Opps......Upon rereading I see that I wrote the wrong thing....I said you would have to lower the front of the new engine to get the gear box and prop shaft flanges parallel. That's incorrect. You will have to raise the front slightly. This can probably still be accomplished with the adjustment threads on the flex mount stud, but it would be best to just install a shim a few mm thick under the front flex mount.

In general, its best if the engine mount bracket can be kept toward the center of the adjustment range on the flex mount stud. It decreases the bending moment on the stud.

Regarding the idea of reusing your MS2A gear from the old engine on a new D2-55 engine, I would recommend against it. When the MS2A gear was used in combination with the MD22L, the gearbox was working near the upper end of its torque limit...50 HP @3000 RPM. If you mount the MS2 A gear on the D2-55 engine, with 55 HP@3000RPM you are increasing the gearbox input torque by 10%. That's a marginal application with a new gearbox, let alone one with many hours on it.
(Been down that road before) It's better to go with a new engine and a new gear.

So much to think about....

DougR
Thanks once more DougR. This is just fabulous information. Much appreciated.

Given the difference in the heights of the transmissions, I wonder if the better transmission would be the MS25L -- the 'L' version without the down angle. I think its output is a little bit higher up. I would be attaching to a classic Aquadrive, so I'll have a bit of give up and down (but I'm not sure to what extent the Aquadrive is already giving a bit up down in the current installation, and thus not certain and can give much more).

The reason I'm focusing on the Volvo-Penta D2-55 is the assumed ease of installation due to shared mount locations on old and new engines. But if the gearbox differences mean that it won't be easy, I might be advised to consider other engines.

Thanks again!
__________________
Lantau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2016, 07:20   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 581
Re: Volvo MD22

So...the fact that the vessel is equipped with an Aquadrive CV shaft system changes things a little..............

Before going further there are a few things which should be known about CV (constant velocity) shaft systems:

1. CV systems are rated for the amount of power they can transmit, and this rating is typically given at the optimum joint operating angle of about 2 degrees.
2. Normally 1 degree is the minimum operating angle and 8 or 9 degrees is the maximum angle, although this is determined by shaft RPM. 4 to 5 degrees is considered the normal maximum angle for typical installations.
3. For every increase in joint angle above the optimum, the power rating drops by as much as 8 or 9 %.
4. The shaft portion of the Aquadrive shaft is floating between the two fixed location CV joints and its critical that this float remains the same after the re-power.......ie. the mounting flanges on both ends of the shaft have to be located very near the same location after re-power as before.

If I were to make a guess about the geometry of your existing system, I might surmise that the prop shaft has an down angle of perhaps 11 or 12 degrees to level, and the engine is mounted level with a gearbox output shaft angle of 7 degrees. This leaves an angular difference of perhaps 5 degrees between the shafts, and this difference is split at 2.5 degrees of CV joint angularity at each end of the CV shaft. Might not be spot on, but good enough for this example. You can see where this is going.......

If you were to go with the MS25L horizontal output shaft gearbox as recently mentioned, the new geometry of the shaft arrangement now has a total angle difference between the two shafts of 11 or 12 degrees, and because the engine height isn't modified much, most of the angle is located in the CV joint at the gearbox end. This wont work. Plus, the MS25L gear is 5mm shorter fore and aft, and a spacer would need to be made to accommodate that.

With the Aquadrive shaft, the best gearbox will be the MS25A gear.

The gearbox length and output shaft angle are virtually the same as the existing gear, only the drop dimension is different. If you install a 43mm shim beneath each flex mount you can bolt up the CV shaft and that part of the re-power is done.

DougR
__________________
DougR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2016, 17:03   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 194
Images: 1
Re: Volvo MD22

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougR View Post
So...the fact that the vessel is equipped with an Aquadrive CV shaft system changes things a little..............

Before going further there are a few things which should be known about CV (constant velocity) shaft systems:

1. CV systems are rated for the amount of power they can transmit, and this rating is typically given at the optimum joint operating angle of about 2 degrees.
2. Normally 1 degree is the minimum operating angle and 8 or 9 degrees is the maximum angle, although this is determined by shaft RPM. 4 to 5 degrees is considered the normal maximum angle for typical installations.
3. For every increase in joint angle above the optimum, the power rating drops by as much as 8 or 9 %.
4. The shaft portion of the Aquadrive shaft is floating between the two fixed location CV joints and its critical that this float remains the same after the re-power.......ie. the mounting flanges on both ends of the shaft have to be located very near the same location after re-power as before.

If I were to make a guess about the geometry of your existing system, I might surmise that the prop shaft has an down angle of perhaps 11 or 12 degrees to level, and the engine is mounted level with a gearbox output shaft angle of 7 degrees. This leaves an angular difference of perhaps 5 degrees between the shafts, and this difference is split at 2.5 degrees of CV joint angularity at each end of the CV shaft. Might not be spot on, but good enough for this example. You can see where this is going.......

If you were to go with the MS25L horizontal output shaft gearbox as recently mentioned, the new geometry of the shaft arrangement now has a total angle difference between the two shafts of 11 or 12 degrees, and because the engine height isn't modified much, most of the angle is located in the CV joint at the gearbox end. This wont work. Plus, the MS25L gear is 5mm shorter fore and aft, and a spacer would need to be made to accommodate that.

With the Aquadrive shaft, the best gearbox will be the MS25A gear.

The gearbox length and output shaft angle are virtually the same as the existing gear, only the drop dimension is different. If you install a 43mm shim beneath each flex mount you can bolt up the CV shaft and that part of the re-power is done.

DougR
Thanks again DougR. This is great stuff. It sounds like I can more or less do this by shimming up the new engine.

Can you tell me where you have found the measurements? I have downloaded everything I can find online, including the basic schematics, but they don't have all the measurements I need and some you are describing.

Thanks one more time!
__________________
Lantau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2016, 18:54   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 581
Re: Volvo MD22

The dimension drawings for the D2-55 engine with its various gearbox options can be found online at volvopenta.com .

It used to be that "historic" VP engine data was also on line but I haven't gone looking for it in some time.

The dimension drawings for the MD22L with MS2A gearbox which I used came from technical literature which I have as a result of 30+ years in the engine business. Same for the tech info on Aquadrive, but this can also be found online.

If you are interested I can copy and send you a drawing of the MD22L with the MS2 gear.

DougR
__________________
DougR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2016, 20:04   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 194
Images: 1
Re: Volvo MD22

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougR View Post
...

If you are interested I can copy and send you a drawing of the MD22L with the MS2 gear.

DougR
I'm so grateful DougR! I would most definitely like to have that drawing of the MD22L with the MS2 gear.

I have the drawing of the D2-55 with the MS25A, and I have quite a few documents on the MD22L, but not the drawing you have.

You can PM me or post the drawing. There will be other folks out there who will need to make the same engine upgrade.

Can't thank you enough!
__________________
Lantau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2016, 07:57   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 581
Re: Volvo MD22

MD22L drawing attached...
Attached Files
File Type: pdf VPMD22L-MS2B-A.PDF (256.1 KB, 31 views)
__________________
DougR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2016, 15:45   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 194
Images: 1
Re: Volvo MD22

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougR View Post
MD22L drawing attached...
Thanks!
__________________

__________________
Lantau is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
volvo

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Volvo MD22 - errr, Where's the Thermostat ? :-) David_Old_Jersey Engines and Propulsion Systems 29 16-04-2012 09:29
Exhaust Smell of Burnt Rubber: Volvo MD22 Cromarty Engines and Propulsion Systems 31 07-04-2011 00:28
For Sale: 1995 Volvo MD22 Diesel Engine thesparrow Classifieds Archive 0 01-09-2010 13:38
Perkins Prima / Volvo MD22 Timing Aegean sailor Engines and Propulsion Systems 4 25-03-2010 20:17



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.