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Old 24-11-2007, 18:26   #16
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Andrew does need to apologize. Pat has been most helpful on this site and you should remember that advice from qualified personnel is hard to get, especially free advice. Disputes with manufacturers sometimes get a bit complicated and no reputable dealer will give you advice that voids your warranty.
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Old 24-11-2007, 18:33   #17
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No need to polarize the issue -- I am not suggesting that you do anything at all for Robbie D much less involve your family. That's not my affair. I am sympathetic about the problem enough to suggest options other than leaving the boat in port. My comments are general -- I am not fixing someone's boat from afar.

I may not have explained the grounding system, or you may not be familiar with Swans and other european boats. The matter is not one of positive versus negative. This one uses a negative return that is separate from the boat ground. For all electrical equipment, the ground is isolated from the negative return. That makes it complicated to deal with senders, starters, alternators, and glowplugs that use the block as negative. (It also makes other wiring more complicated.)

The presence of a saildrive exacerbates considerations of grounding, stray currents and electrolysis, as you no doubt know that aluminum is one of the least noble metals. And, saildrives used to have problems with dissolving struts. Volvo approaches this by isolating the entire saildrive from the block, and that may be good enough for most installations. Swan adds other means, and if you are interested, I can send you prints for how this is done. I don't know what Yanmar does, nor am I convinced that the Swan approach is optimal.
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Old 24-11-2007, 18:37   #18
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Apologies

I do apologize. I am not trolling for a lawsuit, nor do I mean to insult anyone. I am new to this thread.

andy
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Old 24-11-2007, 18:45   #19
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Per ABYC all galvanic and DC grounds are connected together. Except on a steel hull where they are connected then run thru an isolation transformer.
If Swan has chosen to physically isolate the saildrive thru non conductive means. I can't see where this will be effective. They will need to machine a plastic spacer for the bell housing (???) then use a completely rubber hubed dampener. They will also have to design a way to secure the SD to the engine with non conductive bolts.
There are better was to skin this cat, and it might take a redesign from Swan to alleviate all the potential issues.

Now, I'm wondering if Swan did a bell housing isolator and that was the cause. If so, this wasn't a Volvo problem.


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I am not suggesting that you do anything at all for Robbie D much less involve your family.
My family doesn't have a choice to be involved. This is how I make a living. I maintain a presence on this and other boards to help get good information disseminated. We all know the boat business if full of people who will try to bluff thru a problem
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Old 24-11-2007, 18:46   #20
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Originally Posted by Andrew Lippman View Post
I do apologize. I am not trolling for a lawsuit, nor do I mean to insult anyone. I am new to this thread.

andy
Duly accepted, now lets learn from what Swan did.
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Old 26-11-2007, 04:42   #21
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Pat I would never hold you responsible for advice. It is alwas ones own liability to follow it. Hopefully the mechanic here comes up with a solution or I will be buying all new EVC parts and replacing then one at a time until the engine starts
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Old 26-11-2007, 05:11   #22
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Roddie,
I strongly doubt it's an EVC problem.
I'd look at the installation carefully and touch every inch of the wiring harness to confirm a screw wasn't run thru the harness. Then look at every connection and confirm the pins are seated. Does the boat have a Fireboy? does it have auto shut down? these have been documented to be a problem on other boats.

It's mans tendency to blame what they don't understand when the problem is usually a needle in the eye of the complainant.
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Old 26-11-2007, 11:46   #23
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For all electrical equipment, the ground is isolated from the negative return.
I suspect someone does not understand the actuall wiring layout as they see it. If that satement of the ground being isolated were true, then you would have many many more seriouse issues. Failure to start the engine would be a miner one and in that respect, maybe a saving grace type issue.
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Old 26-11-2007, 18:38   #24
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And the answer is..
The "black box". Yes the EVC control is sending a continous voltage of whatever the battery voltage is , at time of measurement it was 12.45V, to the fuel shutoff solenoid on the injector pump. Now this is only supposed to happen when the stop button is pressed on the EVC control panel. This is what I wanted to "bypass" two days ago but didn't know if the solenoid let fuel through or shut fuel off when powered. The solenoid was jammed( 12 volts continuously does that I guess) and after it was removed and the pin in the solenoid pushed back in, and the solenoid reinstalled the engine started immediately but the solenoid is fried and does not work to shut it off anymore. But there is an old fashoned lever that does the trick. I guess in case the battery dies?

It is covered under warranty but again it is the second time the "black box"
of the EVC system has gone south in less than a year...At Las Palamas in the Canary Islands and out in the ocean here near the Virgin islands.
So..while the local volvo shop( who have been GREAT even if volvo customer service does not know of them) is getting the new parts I may not have them install them.
The engine starts now and a manual pull shutoff is fine with me.. I know it will work and better it will not keep the engine from starting as long as I remember to push it back in.

Perhaps after paying 200K for a brand new boat and motor I should not expect it to work after less than a year and leave it in port...

Someone asked about the motor.. it is small smooth quiet with great power characteristic( smooth power adn torque as you increase engine speed) and great fuel economy....BUT Bypass the EVC..the dealer in Las Palmas showed me how to jump start it in case it went Kaput again oh say 2000 miles into the 3000 mile atlantic crossing,just run a spring loaded push button to the solenoid and shut it down manually with the aformentioned lever..and now after working with the dealer here I know how to bypass the fuel shutoff..and the other alarms still work but I want real gauges anyway..oil pressure is the only one I am not sure how to replace now but my dealer here will work with me on it...
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Old 26-11-2007, 18:42   #25
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the infamous black box..
http://www.sailingallover.com/images..._40_lowres.jpg
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Old 26-11-2007, 18:45   #26
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Robbie,
I again caution your statements.
You are a Professional Captain, your words are held to a higher regard whether you like it or not. When you endorse the modification of a factory installed system, you assume part of that liability should there be a failure.


Again, I've learned we can not communicate as we couldn't on another board....have a nice day...I'm done
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Old 26-11-2007, 20:25   #27
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Pat,
Thank you for trying to help with the post about checking wiring harnesses and such. We did do that as well as check the hoses replace the filters,bleed and rebleed the system out at sea before help was available. The fact plenty of fuel was comming out the bleed screw on the injector pump but nothing out the injector lines when opened and the engine cranked was what made me believe the EVC was shutting of the fuel via the solenoid.

As far as modifying engines goes, advice etc We give it all the time..
most is excellent.. George has brilliant ideas often..me I'm soo soo
In this case in my mind Volvo withholding information is crimnal..
If I don't know how to start my engine in an emergency when the electronics fail but there IS a way to bypass the failed electronics and start the engine and I lose my boat with perhaps loss of life? I will assume the liability and give the knowledge everytime..I am even going to put a webpage together on EXACTLEY how to do it...because out there on the ocean as you know there are no dealars and parts departments and even though we have sailboats the engines can save your butt like when the Whales come to play with your boat and start to surf your bow wave or your running in the calm before the storm or maybe you just misjudged the current when you sailed off that mooring...and the ICW and inlets? We need to be able to count on our engines and we paid a lot of money for them usually..to not have manual bypasses or to not let the owners know how to do it is crazy..

I am sorry we can't seem to communicate Pat.. nobody has to take my advice but I give it freely. weather(as you know I'll even download the charts for you ) , engines, comunications, where to anchor or visit ,best beaches whatever except where to find lobster that I hoard..liability issues in case someone get a spine in thier hand...

Sorry this ended up so far off topic...all I was looking for was if anybody had problems like mine that turned out to be the EVC or if any volvo owners knew about the fuel shutoff solenoid or how to simply let the engine start without the EVC involved..I have been a member here for several years and don't log in often but google returned these results.
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Old 26-11-2007, 20:54   #28
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The solenoid was jammed( 12 volts continuously does that I guess)
I am not sure the Black box is your issue. The fact of having 12V being supplied all the time means nothing. These soliniods are designed to operate with or without power in continuose operation. The windings are infact, wound for a higher voltage than just 12V. 12V will not harm them no matter how long the thing is energised.
Solinoids are such that they are shut off when the power is disconnected. So....if the Black box is sending a correct voltage, the solinoid will be energised and opened. If the Voltage is not present, the Solinoid will be closed. It is possible the circuit will have a fuse, but this fuse maybe in the Blackbox and maybe user unservicable. I am not familiar with the internals of the system, so I do not know for sure. But many engines manufacturers have a fuel cut off solinoid on their engines. Most never have an issue. But every now and then, one does fail. And it does not matter who's engine it is.
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Old 26-11-2007, 21:07   #29
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Seeing as the original starting of this thread was somethng different and was not really answered, I will split this thread apart and have the original few posts in a different thread.
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Old 26-11-2007, 21:44   #30
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I am going out on a limb here as I am not familiar with the particular model engine. I also think what I have to suggest considering is the same as Andrew Lippman has alluded to.

As far as I am aware, and was advised this by a Volvo Penta dealer during a chatting session, all newish VP's are isolated ground (indeed my mid 1990's one is too). That same dealer when I asked him this also mentioned that he got quite alot of work from incorrect installations of these engines through the installer's lack of understanding of this resulting in grounding the engine to DC -ve (which it should not be).

I am not familiar with the situation in USA but it has been reason to cause me wonder that in Calder's Mechanical & Electrical Manual (and some articles of his I have come across) he does not seem to realise these isolated ground engines exist except for a passing mention that they may be useful in metal boats - then everywhere says to ground the DC -ve to the engine and mentions dire outcomes if it is not. I have therefore assumed that such is not familiar territory there.

ABYC (CE-11 from memory) talks of grounding the engine to DC -ve but contrary to what many say, my reading of it does not bar not doing so. Without getting it out to check I think it uses words like "may be grounded to the engine" but makes no effort at all to say what the boat's electrical system should be like if not so grounded. My own engine is not so grounded and I am familiar with many other vessels where that are the same (including those that have been built to classification society rules and entered class).

Am not saying this is the problem but just raising it as a "Maybe".

EDIT: I see in another thread that Alan has some familiarity with the engine, maybe he is able to comment on the isolated ground status of this model engine?
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