Universal M25 Start Issues

[esp803]

Hello all,

Long story short, I ended up purchasing a 1981 Catalina 30 as a liveaboard for the west coast of Canada. As far as a liveaboard goes everything is working and I'm loving it... however... This is my first boat and I would like to learn out to sail to really enjoy my new local. Which brings me to a little snag I've had.

When I picked the boat up in Vancouver, I brought a former colleague down to help me move it over to Victoria and we noticed some difficulty in getting it started. Once running, it's runs reliably, and very smoothly... it's just getting the thing started. Fast forward a month or so, I signed up for some sailing lessons and went to start the motor... no joy. Anyways the following is a list of the problems that I've noticed, any advise or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

The system is setup with a turn key for "on" and "glow Plug" with a push button to engage the starter. When turned to glow plug, there is a voltage drop on the gage which I interpret as the glow plugs do work (how efficiently I'm not sure). After a decent warm up time (30-40 seconds), I press the starter button, and this is where things go... wrong...

Firstly, once the start button is pressed, it will stay engaged most of the time, even when the button is released, forcing me to shut down the starter with the DC Master switch. Not Ideal. I'd say it stays engaged 80% of the time.

Secondly, when it is pressed it will do one of 3 things, all about an equal amount of the time. 1) The start will engage and crank the motor 2) the start will engage without cranking the motor (can hearing it spinning away), 3) the starter will not engage.

Thirdly, after sufficient cranking when the stars align, she's still reluctant to start.

So... I realize this may be a lot of compounded problems, but any insight you have would be greatly appreciated. Please don't hesitate to ask me more questions regarding the system, and I'll do my best to answer. Beers to the people who can point me in the right direction (assuming you live on Vancouver island, or we cross paths at some point)

Cheers,

E

[markwesti]

I have been helping my friend with his Catalina 32' a 96' model , his engine takes a long time to start . He found out that you can use a heat gun to get your engine started , just shoot it through the air intake . and also we found out he is not getting voltage to the glow plugs we think it's the switch . But that's not your problem well maybe in part , I think you need to just have your starter rebuilt . Shouldn't cost more than $250 . there abouts. Also when you get that rebuilt starter back on the engine make sure all the connections are good . And check for voltage to those glow plugs . Good luck .

[Lepke]

When diesels age, the compression becomes less. They ignite the fuel when the air is compressed causing the temperature to rise above the ignition point. In cold weather, even a new engine can have trouble compressing the air enough for ignition. Also the speed the engine turns is a factor. Have a proper diesel battery and good cables.
Using a hair dryer or heat gun helps because you start compression at a higher temp. A block heater is better.
If you're using glow plugs past 10 seconds you could burn them out.
If your starter fails to turn or locks on, most likely cause is a bad solenoid. The contacts get pitted over time and can weld together or fail to make contact. If the solenoid can be disassembled, you can clean the contacts with a file.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by esp803

Hello all,

Long story short, I ended up purchasing a 1981 Catalina 30 as a liveaboard for the west coast of Canada. As far as a liveaboard goes everything is working and I'm loving it... however... This is my first boat and I would like to learn out to sail to really enjoy my new local. Which brings me to a little snag I've had.

When I picked the boat up in Vancouver, I brought a former colleague down to help me move it over to Victoria and we noticed some difficulty in getting it started. Once running, it's runs reliably, and very smoothly... it's just getting the thing started. Fast forward a month or so, I signed up for some sailing lessons and went to start the motor... no joy. Anyways the following is a list of the problems that I've noticed, any advise or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

The system is setup with a turn key for "on" and "glow Plug" with a push button to engage the starter. When turned to glow plug, there is a voltage drop on the gage which I interpret as the glow plugs do work (how efficiently I'm not sure). After a decent warm up time (30-40 seconds), I press the starter button, and this is where things go... wrong...

Firstly, once the start button is pressed, it will stay engaged most of the time, even when the button is released, forcing me to shut down the starter with the DC Master switch. Not Ideal. I'd say it stays engaged 80% of the time.

Secondly, when it is pressed it will do one of 3 things, all about an equal amount of the time. 1) The start will engage and crank the motor 2) the start will engage without cranking the motor (can hearing it spinning away), 3) the starter will not engage.

Thirdly, after sufficient cranking when the stars align, she's still reluctant to start.

So... I realize this may be a lot of compounded problems, but any insight you have would be greatly appreciated. Please don't hesitate to ask me more questions regarding the system, and I'll do my best to answer. Beers to the people who can point me in the right direction (assuming you live on Vancouver island, or we cross paths at some point)

Cheers,

E

First things first, disuse is the enemy of all motors, especially if they've been previously neglected...running the engine a half hour a week, under some sort of load, will help to avoid problems.

From your symptoms, the button switch needs to be replaced, though a squirt of some WD40 or similar and working the pushbutton in and out may free it up. Some switches can even be disassembled and cleaned.

It also sounds like there is an issue with the starter. Simplest things first, check that all your connections are tight and clean, both positive and negative. The mounting surfaces between the starter and the block should also be clean. Corrosion within the cables is common and can be determined by a relative stiffness in one cable or portion of cable compared to other cables.

Solenoid issues on starters are also common, they too can be replaced separately or sometimes disassembled and cleaned. If the starter motor is running but the starter isn't engaging, the solenoid is a logical place to look.

The starting system on small diesels is simple and forgiving. Charged batteries and tight, clean connections go a long way toward quick, reliable starts...

[esp803]

Thanks for the responses. I think I'll pull the starter off, and give it a quick check along with the connections, and then probably bring it into a shop for a bit of an overhaul. And cross my fingers haha.

[Stu Jackson]

Engines 101 - The BIGGEST & BEST collection of M25 Series Universal Engine Information on the Internet, plus some M35, too

Diesel Engine - c34.org

[beetlejuice30]

replace or rebuild starter sounds like the solenoid is the reason for the continues cracking however could be the momentary switch on the engine Control panel
as for the hard start look at glow plugs and have your injectors serviced
I have a m25 xpb great motor upon purchase my control rack on the injector pump was stuck
runs like a dream now thow

Sent from my SM-J200M using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Snowpetrel]

Yeah, sounds like starter motor/solenoid or switch issues. Might be worth bypassing the switch and trying to hotwire it first to eliminate keyswitch/wiring issues if you are comfortable doing this.

You shouldn't need more than 10 seconds or so on the glow plugs. More time can cause premature failure of the glowplugs.

Sometimes a failing starter motor can also result in less cranking speed making it very hard to start the engine. To me it seems most likely its a starter motor issue in your case. I will be interested to hear what the final diagnosis is.

[Steve Bean]

I suggest referring to the engine manual for recommended glow plug time. Also, use the information Stu Jackson linked to and find out which parts you can get from Kubota source rather than "The Westerbeke Jewelry Store."

[basssears]

I agree with previous replies that it sounds like your starter and/or solenoid (and perhaps some of the ignition wiring) needs some attention.

As for glow plugs, per the manual they say to activate glow plugs for "30 to 60 seconds". This has been my experience with the slightly larger (but very similar) M40... for cold start (especially on cooler days) if I don't run the glow plugs for 30+ seconds before cranking the engine is reluctant to start.

BTW, be careful of cranking the engine too much, you don't want to back fill with sea water from exhaust... if you have to crank the engine a lot best to close your raw water intake (remembering, of course, to open it again as soon as engine catches).

Another thing to check is if all 3 of your glow plugs are actually working... voltage drop presumably indicates some plugs are warming up but maybe not all. Get yourself an infrared laser thermometer and point it at each plug as someone is holding the glow plug switch in, make sure all of them are lighting. As a bonus, when engine is running make sure each cylinder is at approximately the same temperature, if one is much cooler you might have a cylinder that is not getting good compression.

Finally, check out this tutorial by MaineSail:
Universal Diesel Wiring Harness Upgrade Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com
... it includes one item pertinent to this discussion, which is a way to get much better amperage to your glow plugs so they heat up faster and you don't have to hold the switch down for as long... I haven't done this yet but it's on my list and seems a very worthwhile upgrade.

Not specific to your starting problems, but specific to keeping your batteries well charged when your engine is running and, you know, not burning your boat down, is to make sure you read the rest of that page and see if you have the same preposterous wiring setup for the alternator that a lot of Universals had. Mine was like that, 50a alternator trying to push through ~15 feet of 10 gauge wire, about 10% voltage drop, batteries never got good charge, wiring just waiting to burst into flame. Mind you this was how they came from the factory, and despite my boat being 30 years old it was still like this. The solution that Maine Sail has on this page is an easy fix and should be #1 on your list of mods if it hasn't been done before.

[sva3]

I solved the hard-starting issue on my 1989 Catalina 30 after inspecting the wiring-harness connector that are behind the cockpit instrument panel. (...and after replacing the glow-plugs which didn't solve the problem...)
The connections were corroded and upon cleaning the connections the problem was solved.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by basssears

... it includes one item pertinent to this discussion, which is a way to get much better amperage to your glow plugs so they heat up faster and you don't have to hold the switch down for as long... I haven't done this yet but it's on my list and seems a very worthwhile upgrade.

The solenoid glow plug upgrade is great. It's included in the links I previously posted for the OP. A few $$s for the solenoid, some wires and less than an hour of work. My link has a wiring diagram I did, too.

[OS2Dude]

Congratulations on your new home, we love our 1985 C-30.

First thing - READ THIS WEB SITE. While it is for Catalina 34s, most will apply to us as well. Especially the part on the engine wiring harness, which if still the original is a FIRE HAZARD. When we bought ours, the owner had stated the starter would not work reliably and had he had had to turn the engine manually via the flywheel sometimes. He had even had a 'mechanic' work on, rebuilt the starter, added a solenoid for the starter, etc to no avail. After I replaced the connectors and wiring, we never had an issue starting again.

Try these sites as well:

Tech Notes Online

Universal M-25 Images and Specifications - Universal Diesel Engine Owners Manual - Marine Diesel Direct / TOAD Marine Supply

[esp803]

Well. Now you guys have me in a panic that I've damaged my engine from too much cranking... oh the joys of buying a boat with zero knowledge on boating haha.

[Tetepare]

On mine the switch is actually a THREE position switch. Off (left) on (mid), and heat plugs (far right). The difference between on and right is very little and actually can be confusing because "on" is indeed to the right.


What has happened with mine several times is that switch gums up and it doesn't actually go to far right and heat the plugs. I squirt some WD40 in, wiggle the switch, and it works. The first time this happened I couldn't figure out why the engine wouldn't start and then it occurred to me that it seemed like the switch was perhaps just a couple degrees left of where I though it should have been- and I was right. Somebody new to this may not catch that minor difference.


Your starter should dis-engage when you release the pushbutton. Several issues could be at hand here, none very difficult to compartmentalize and fix.


As said in another post, a full muffler will prevent the boat from starting. Cranking the starter (or allowing it to keep going after the button is released) can fill the muffler with water, making it very hard to start next time. The muffler has a drain. Use it before you try to start again.