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Old 07-10-2016, 12:42   #31
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

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I'll leave all the rest of that alone, but this I will address as I too used to think that, until I got a Prius, and found out what is called by the Prius crowd as the rule of 60.

That is a Prius at a steady state of 60 MPH will return a mileage of 60 MPG, flat ground, no wind.

There may be a few four door 3,000 lb automobiles that will do this, but I don't know of any.

Many European diesel sedans like the Mercedes C Class will do that.


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Old 07-10-2016, 13:35   #32
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

That wankle looks perfect for a human rated drone. Imagine roaring around the anchorage with four props turning. Instead of a dink you have a drone that runs on diesel. No more wet rides to the beach. Heck, you could run it on excess gin! You would be the envy of the fleet.��
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Old 07-10-2016, 13:41   #33
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

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... Heck, you could run it on excess gin! You would be the envy of the fleet.��
How would one acquire excess gin? Wouldn't that just for be tomorow's G&Ts?
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Old 07-10-2016, 17:02   #34
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

Going back to the starting point of the thread - we have the Aussie design Orbital engines in the mix.
OK, development was sidelined to fuel systems later, but if talking basic principles of being different, offering rational new possibilities.....
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Old 07-10-2016, 18:05   #35
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

Do not forget that the claims to superior equivalent mileage for electrics is all hype. If you carefully do the math on well to wheels efficiency it turns out that with the generation inefficiency, the grid losses, the conversion of electricity to chemical energy, the chemical energy conversion back to electrical energy (charging then discharging batteries), the electrical to mechanical energy conversion, you may find that the electric car is a bunch of nonsense. the only advantage as I see it is that the pollution is elsewhere than point of use. Whadaya think? F
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Old 07-10-2016, 18:40   #36
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

Japanese not innovative. Does not produce high end cars.

Tell that to super car enthusiasts that KNOW a Nissan gtr even the older skyline pedigree was just about as good as it got. And that legacy spans as far back as the 60's! You realize in class production gtr variants factory fresh set Nurburgring RECORDS. And not by small margins!


The only reason most Americans are clueless about the Nissan gtr breed is because most of the highest production cars worth a damn are not permitted to be sold here. You find them everywhere in Asia. It is truly a engineering marvel!

Anyone say Honda acura NSX? 1992?

TALK about innovation in production. The huge list of first in production with that performer was truly a super car killer. Yes it was. And at a price that embarassed the most spoiled italian car patriot. The latest release model after a hiatus unfortunately was not going to be nearly competitive; looks great lots of improvements. But not nearly in the same caliber that the first generation NSX brought to the table and then ate everyone's dinner!

Yes it is true in recent years the Japanese have stalled what producing truly high end cars. But just like the have in the past the likes of Nissan, Honda, and even mazda, when they decide to really give it a go, it's true substance they deliver verified on the track...and pricing. Noonne does it like Japan when.it comes to affordable high end sports cars.

I'll make a prediction. In a few years Honda will produce another super car killer. All electric, all wheel drive, maybe hybrid like the Porsche 918. But faster at every benchmark than even the Tesla, and probably less than 150 k USD! I can't even imagine what be tech innovations that will disrupt the market... Again!

To be fair and objective, Japan innovates auto just as well as any.. Definitely better than US production! By a huge margin.


Here is a good list of Japanese cars that are just a small composite of very solidly engineered super fast, super performer cars.

http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/10-of-the-fastest-japanese-cars-to-ever-grace-americas-shores.html/?a=viewall

You just can't ignore the reality that Japan produces fantastic cars...for the money and performance, noone touches Japan!
If we are going to see mass production highly efficient affordable, solidly performer electrics. I wager it will come from Japan.

I agree with sentiments about Tesla. Fast sure...in a straight line. Efficient, not so much. And nothing particularly ground breaking in tech.

To me the next big thing in auto innovation is electrical, but also efficient high end performance. The real world street street stuff. Not straight line or boring banked ovals. That is what Japan and Germany as known for. The experience of aggressively tackling a road course...

Couple that with efficiency and excellent mileage between charging is where the next mark will be.

I predict Japan will get there first.. Figuratively and literally. They have the heritage for it.
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Old 07-10-2016, 19:40   #37
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

My "Japanese" 2012 Infiniti G37 has a variable valve event and lift V6 that is pretty darn innovative(even though the tech is about 10 years old), exceptionally fun and fast to drive, producing 330 HP(in a 3800 lb vehicle) and over 30mpg on the highway. It will give any naturally aspirated American V8 a run for it's money at about 5 seconds 0-60 and all wheel drive.

Pure electric cars would be great if its all coming from solar, wind or nuclear power which is a long long way off, if ever. For now, they probably pollute more than conventional.

I have two friends that have Priuses and they like them alot...
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Old 07-10-2016, 19:46   #38
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

Hydrodane I know exactly what a GTR is, have driven R32 and R33 Skylines and watched them at Bathurst as most Australian petrol heads do. Yes the Japanese had some great cars 20 years ago but today they are generally behind the curve when you look across the full range of cars they offer. Koreans now have equal or better quality and design in many core models.

No the Japanese aren't innovative. Yes they can make a robotic dog but that is hardly putting a man on the moon. Check the key features on modern cars, airbags, abs braking, stability control, automatic or dual clutch transmissions, air conditioning, laminated glass, hid headlights, cd / MP4 player, crumple ~ crash zones, power or electric steering, turbochargers, fuel injection, disc brakes, etc and you will find none of this was invented in Japan.

People's perception is rarely reality. Yes the Japanese did invent the transistor and Walkman but that as a long time ago. I've done a lot of work in Japan and Germany and I've seen both approaches to innovation.

Don't know how you can say Tesla's aren't efficient, though a lack of knowledge I suspect.

Ps I have a Japanese car and I own it because it's archaic - 2010 Nissan Patrol. Perfect for serious off-road.





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Old 07-10-2016, 19:54   #39
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

If diesel outboards become mainstream with good performance and reliability, say goodbye to sail drives!

In re the other discussion - my experience with Japanese virtues is I don't think you can find better large project teams for optimization/getting a product to market with awareness of production/service. Japanese kids are better socialized for large group work IMO and you get better collaboration between production and design.

Large groups however aren't very good for startups and the best Japanese engineering grads get picked up by the big employers. There's less youthful risk taking towards signing up to a new small firm.

There's a worship of Japanese products in some parts, but IMO they earned it over the past fifty years. Personally I don't understand why Germans get such a high regard - there's such a strong engineering arrogance that VW/Benz would brush aside customer feedback and keep making same mistakes.

One concrete example? Direct injection in gasoline engines was the big performance change the last decade. The Germans were definitely the first to introduce it, their experience in diesel common rail no doubt helped. Problem was carbon buildup. Corporate wasn't listening to techs at the field, particularly in countries far from Germany with diff climates, fuel and consumer behavior.

Hyundai/Kia has done a much better job introducing the technology. Honda starting to now and Toyota still waiting.
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Old 07-10-2016, 19:55   #40
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

Yep the G37 is a nice car. Alfa used VVT in a production car in the 80's. To be truly innovative a company needs to pioneer new technology not just copy it.


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Originally Posted by CaptChris376 View Post
My "Japanese" 2012 Infiniti G37 has a variable valve event and lift V6 that is pretty darn innovative(even though the tech is about 10 years old), exceptionally fun and fast to drive, producing 330 HP(in a 3800 lb vehicle) and over 30mpg on the highway. It will give any naturally aspirated American V8 a run for it's money at about 5 seconds 0-60 and all wheel drive.

Pure electric cars would be great if its all coming from solar, wind or nuclear power which is a long long way off, if ever. For now, they probably pollute more than conventional.

I have two friends that have Priuses and they like them alot...




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Old 07-10-2016, 20:25   #41
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

I guess I have different idea about what efficient means.

Tesla achieves great efficiency, until you decide to press it into the super car mode it is capable of, it was designed for, it was marketed for.

Then you lose range big time.

Nothing particularly novel about that drop but it drops big time in the Tesla. This entire concept of the car relies on a very fast discharging system. I get the trade off. It makes the car exciting no dobt aboit it. But like all electrics its also inefficient by design for another reason... At least with you r32 or r34, you can make at least one hundred miles at the top end no sweat..hit the pit, fill up in under five minutes and or rinse, repeat! Reliably even.

You go hard in a Tesla...you got.maybe twenty. Minutes or less at then top end.. You can grow a decent beard in the time it takes to recharge to do that again.

My idea of efficient no doubt is different then conventional. Call it the 'bank heist efficient " mentality.


When you see an all electric successful as the getaway car and ensuing Long range chase, I'll agree electrics are 'efficient'

I agree tesla is efficient at driving miss daisy mode, but noone is buying that car for a wagon ride...if they are, should have the car taken away and given a prius.

Which raises the recent reasons why Tesla is introducing a truly efficient commuter, sans the Superman mode... But again, noone would be using that model any more efficiently than a Prius either.

Bathurst...the Australian Laguna seca! Or is it the other way?
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Old 07-10-2016, 20:48   #42
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

Have you seen the gtr nismo nissan? Its production model that set nurburging record for its class ..all stock. That was 2015... I believe it was. Hardly a 20 year aged fact.

Just saying


Yes there are faster production cars for that same course, but what you find is they are very very expensive, had serious weight reduction mods, and even two were electric hybrids!

To find a gtr in that same caliber with a very respectable time is nothing short of very innovative technology produced by Japan in a production car with no mods. Factory as they say, except maybe the tires. But we understand at that level of performance its a requirement to properly tune a car to the course with proper tires.

I have a very high opinion of Japanese tech with autos. From.my perspective, they produce cars that are top performers that ate within the reach of the average buyer of no serious wealth. That cannot be said for autos made by other manufacturing countries who require serious investment for just slightly better performance.

One day, I'll restore a 97 NSX coupe. One day I'll satisfy that goal to own the car I believe is the epitomy of innovation and performance.

Or a 2002 GTR.

Same idea
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Old 07-10-2016, 23:13   #43
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

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Dock Head !
A little history on the Prius Cars
The Toyota Prius was developed as a low emission commuter car strictly for the California market to take advantage of a new law allowing low emission cars to use the commuter lanes on California roads without having to do ride share.
Considering 1/3 of all cars sold in North America are sold in California it was a big potential market and worth the risk if the car failed. At first Toyota lost money on every car they built but the ground swelling of demand turned them into being profitable and the cars were released to the rest of the U.S. Even Toyota has pointed out the Prius is a great car if you spend your time driving in stop and go traffic but if you most of he time on an open road you are better off with a non-hybrid.
Toyota has been playing with a diesel hybrid for the non-US market that is super efficient but is not ready to release it. Take a Prius and add 1/3 better mileage to it and you get the idea.
I alway hear about the hwy/city difference with the Prius. I purchased a new 2nd generation Prius in 2004. Still have it. When I was commuting and doing a lot of stop and go city driving as well, I got between 50 and 60 mpg, usually close to 60 if I did not have to do much city driving. Low 50's or high 40's in the city. this was full tank to next fill up, which was typically ~400 miles since I saw no reason to press the the distance. My several pals (male and female, all with varying driving styles, but some with similar patterns) were a bit lower, but darn close. What I am saying is that the more mileage in the city claim was and is bunk, or maybe just an engineering projection. Love driving my Prius, but not as much as sailing.
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Old 08-10-2016, 00:33   #44
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

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Wouldn't something like this:

40S - 5BHP - Wankel Rotary Engine | Advanced Innovative Engineering (UK) Ltd

Be fantastic as a dinghy outboard. 5 hp out of 2kg (!!!).

Better yet, it can use diesel fuel!!!

Downside is likely to be that they cost $100,000 each, as they are designed for military use
Excellent for a genset too.
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Old 10-10-2016, 06:27   #45
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Re: Ultralight Diesel Fuel Burning Small Wankel?

With all due respect, gasoline used to be a distilled "spec" product. (It is called Benzene in eastern Europe.) The new blended fuels program from the 1990's, blends it out of waste product components and then blends in an additive that gives it more (or less) octane.
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