Sub-30 Foot Sailboat Power

[SkiprJohn]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Just a reminder that over 30 feet I think this is not the way to go. You can't really get more than say a 20hp on the transom effectively so when you pass 30 feet I think a modern diesel is the way to go.

Also many transom types (angled) make this a non-starter. Plumb transom is required, IMO, although I did consider a midships mounted outboard with a well and retractor. Some designs are doing this. You lose the advantage of creating inner space and you have a gas powered engine in the "salon" area - not my druther.



Weight and location matters on a sailboat. We want the heavy stuff low and amidships in general and we want a balanced boat.

The MD2010 weighs 280 lbs with saildrive. The Yamaha 15L weighs 90.

Using the bow as a datum the MD is at about 20 feet from the bow the Yamaha is 27 feet.

MD = 280 X 20 = 5600 foot pounds
YH = 90 X 27 = 2430 foot pounds

Mathematically the hobby horsing concern is a non-issue unless one is worried about a "light stern" - this may in fact be the issue with some of the extreme cases of cavitation. The stern lifts to easily.

In fact I wsa commenting to my brother how high Relax Lah! appears to be sitting on her lines after refit.

When one loads out the original engine bay with batteries one can actually balance the boat again I am sure.



See above I think we may have been thinking about the cause of hobby horsing incorrectly for quite a while.



I think this can be improved. I have an "articulating" mount and yes the 88 pound deadlift is not fun. The vertical slide mounts are a better option and I bet some enterprising engineer could create a rack a pinion one with a crank or even electric motor!

Getting splashed, pooped whatever is of course a probability. I reckon a marine outboard engine oughtta be able to survive getting soaked but your concern is valid and real.



Petrol on-board is a concern for millions of power boats. They don't seem to blow up every day and most cruisers have petrol for the dink on-board somewhere anyway. One could even install a proper petrol fuel bladder, bilge blower etc.

OTOH - small generator (H2000) dink and outboard would all run on the same fuel and you eliminate one type.

The used Diesel of course is an option but you then still get 20-30 year old design and systems. Half the threads on CF Engineering would disappear if pesky, cranky, ancient diesel not working threads didn't keep us in business.

For $5,500 you get brand new everything...



True reverse performance is diminished. As you know there are other ways to unground - kedging, heeling, dink push and waiting...

I guess if I changed over to an outboard I could always have a diesel soaked rag near my bunk to feel at home. I love the smell of diesel in the morning.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I bought the Parsun 5hp. It is the engine I recently replaced with the Yamaha. Lasted 3 years. It was a model after the western management took over and things were supposed to be better. The metal parts were crap. All the shift linkage in the leg broke and then when I tried to repair started disintegrating.

One guy's bad experience.

You can screw up any engine in lot less time...marine enviroments

[billdre]

I think this thread has done a good job of outlining the various pros and cons of outboard vs diesel inboard. However, I would add one more pro to the outboard: maneuverability. I have a 28' O'Day, 7,300 lbs, and a prior owner took out the gas powered saildrive. What I have on the reverse angle transom is a 9.9 Mercury Big Foot with a 25" shaft. It was professionally installed on a 15hp hydraulic assisted mount. The Big Foot is, I believe similar to the Yamaha high output 9.9. It has an oversize prop pitched for either forward or reverse and wedded to a gear box that produces low gear "bite." The 4-stroke still uses less than a gallon an hour pushing the boat at 5 knots. But the real advantage is going in and out of slips no matter where the wind is or what the current is doing. For me this makes entering new harbors and exploring inlets an easier undertaking. This boat wasn't made for offshore but as a coastal cruiser this outboard gives me added control in close situations.

[Kelsea]

Electric is there for under 30 feet. I've been sailing for 56 years and if I was coming through the under 30 foot stage, I'd go electric and I'd find a way to pay for it. Some great options now.
Motor sailing with no noise = 10+ degrees higher pointing, no smell, no bad fuel from lack of use (we're sailors). There are no negatives after initial cost and we all motor or motorsail so a much more enjoyable and quiet ride.

[warrior 90]

For coastal sailing I think getting in and out of the harbour one needs very hours of propulsion.I guess in that case electric is a good option..... allmost No maintanance. In that case I would definitly use a LiPo4 battery. They are getting cheaper.

Weight: 16kg(3.2V 500AH single cell 3-400 $ Hongkong+shipping etc.

x 4=64 Kg a 200 amp AGM weighs allmost the same

Adding a little Honda by the most and You all set
I remember seeing electric motors with auto pilot + GPS incorporated

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I reckon all this kit is still cheaper than 1 full professional diesel overhaul for a sub-30 foot boat.

Electric is interesting but it's not there yet for me.You have to have too much solar and too many batteries to get the same or less utility.

- 15hp electric start outboard & 10amp generator - $2500-$3000
- Remote control kit - $500(?)
- 400W solar - $800(?)
- Honda 2000 - $1200

$5,500 is just the parts bill for a Volvo MD2010 overhaul.

Originally Posted by Kelsea

Electric is there for under 30 feet. I've been sailing for 56 years and if I was coming through the under 30 foot stage, I'd go electric and I'd find a way to pay for it. Some great options now.
Motor sailing with no noise = 10+ degrees higher pointing, no smell, no bad fuel from lack of use (we're sailors). There are no negatives after initial cost and we all motor or motorsail so a much more enjoyable and quiet ride.

I covered electric in my first post. For on and off the dock it is a good option. For weeklong cruising I don't think it is there yet.

A guy in my club converted his Maxi to electric. 2Kw motor. Built a superstructure for solar and but 100's of kilos of battery in the engine bay. He gets 2 hours range. On one of his first outings the superstructure broke and the welders were in fixing it. He reports 2 days to charge the batteries.

Even one of our most active members (Noelex?) converted his boat and showed a trip to NYC where he had to fire up the Hondagen towards the end of the trip.

Talking electric is a big hijack to the outboard thread but I suppose it is inevitable for the discussion to go there.

My point to this thread was about those folks agonizing about the diesel overhaul on a sub-30 footer. I would not take a diesel out that was working fine but I probably wouldn't invest $10-$12k in overhauling a sub-20hp 30 y/o diesel.

OK - While I am at it...

Out board and parts, $4000, and a life of 2000 hours in the most perfect of conditions. A resale of 1/4 the cost. Roughly $2/hour over the life of the engine.

Diesel, $9000 (with new gear box), and a life of 10,000 hours with proper maintainance. A resale value in the boat of about half. Roughly 90 cents an hour over the life of the engine.

We can argue these numbers. I put ~100-200 hours a year on my engine - sub-30 footer weekends and vacations. I won't get 10-20 years out of an outboard and I won't get 50-100 years out of a diesel.

Most of the diesel failures I have seen or read about are corrosion in the aft valve seats and water system failures (heads gaskets, elbows etc.) - these are time based failures not hour based failures. hardware failures are rare (broken crank, rod, valve etc.) - At 10 years diesels are getting dodgy.

So let's do a 10 year comparision and presume the outboard lasts 5 years.

$10k for diesel = $2.73 per day
$4k + $2.5k = $1.78 per day and I get a new engine in 5 years.

Also don't know what you mean about resale value - engine resale or boat resale?

Of course everyone can do their numbers and roll their dice. Someone will say their diesel lasted 30 years and only needed overhaul because he didn't like the paint color. My diesel was overhauled at about 23 years. I can't vouch for the quality of the overhaul (or if there was a previous one) but it failed 5 years later due to compression loss in the aft cylinder. Often accessories are not overhauled either. Nothing worse than getting an overhaul and in a year changing the water pump, another year changing the fuel control, another year the alternator, yada, yada yada...

The heat exchanger on my diesel is failed - Volvo wants $2500 - WTF? I can buy the Yamaha for that...

A guy offered me $800 sight unseen for one of my heads (I have 2) - I didn't do the deal because of corrosion pitting and I didn't want to give the guy a bad deal. I can't imagine what Volvo wants for a head - actually the guy indicated they are not obtainable.

[nimblemotors]

I covered electric in my first post. For on and off the dock it is a good option. For weeklong cruising I don't think it is there yet.

Well glad that is settled. I mean the threads were someone says "I hate diesel" and they get 'buy a diesel' chorus, you know, THOSE threads are OK to hijack.
And notice I have not said a word about electric on your thread. Your welcome.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

Well glad that is settled. I mean the threads were someone says "I hate diesel" and they get 'buy a diesel' chorus, you know, THOSE threads are OK to hijack.
And notice I have not said a word about electric on your thread. Your welcome.

Many thanks!

However - I did put the shot across the bow with my description of my club-mate's conversion. So it's fair game now!

Bring on the Lec-lec arguments! I'm a big boy - LOL...

(If anything got "settled" on CF they'd go outta business)

[brownoarsman]

I'd never seen the numbers presented that way before, very interesting! I know in my boat, the diesel takes up the entire last 10 feet of the boat and expands into the lazzarettes. I'm hoping she gets through the next six months of serious cruising, and I was going to replace it with an outboard anyways when she gave up the ghost, but now I don't feel bad about it


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[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

I'd never seen the numbers presented that way before, very interesting! I know in my boat, the diesel takes up the entire last 10 feet of the boat and expands into the lazzarettes. I'm hoping she gets through the next six months of serious cruising, and I was going to replace it with an outboard anyways when she gave up the ghost, but now I don't feel bad about it


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Again, I am a lazy b@st@rd. The first outboard I installed was a PITA because at critical times - docking and picking up moorings - you have to turn around, lean over the transom to shift and throttle. I added a shifter extension and throttle grip extension and it was improved but not ideal. The key for me is adding remote controls and electric start.

Then the only PITA is raising and lowering it. I can still do a 90 pound deadlift but I'd prefer not to.

Although another advantage is no saildrive boot or cutlass bearing. No prop fouling because the prop is outta the water and if it does snag a bag or rope you might be able to reach it from the transom or at least sit dry in a dink cutting it loose instead of free diving under the boat.

Billdre's idea of steering the outboard for maneuverability has merit but steering over the transom has never worked well for me.

I have noodled how to couple the steering to the rudder. With wheel steering this might be straightforward with tiller steering not sure. May have to look at a MacGregor and see how they handle it. The steering gear is off the shelf but the coupling may not be so straight forward.

[Don C L]

Actually being able to lean over the stern and turn the engine, even a little, one way or the other has really helped move my long keel boat the right way, much better than an inboard set-up would have done. Also my lift is an old mainsheet block hung from the stern pulpit so it goes up and down pretty easy. For me the pros still outweigh the cons quite a bit.

[nimblemotors]

Well OK then. I had a 8hp 4-stroke outboard on my sub-30ft sailboat.
When it failed to start (again) and caused my boat to smash into a barge I had enough,
and replaced it with an ELECTRIC OUTBOARD.

So now it has all the advantages of an outboard, all those of an electric.
It weighs much less than a gas outboard, which negates the problem of outboard weight on the transom. No exhaust to cause cavitation in reverse.
Can instantly go into reverse, no clunking in/out of gear.
A much longer leg so it never came out of the water.
And it won't get stolen because they don't know what it is.

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Many thanks!

However - I did put the shot across the bow with my description of my club-mate's conversion. So it's fair game now!

Bring on the Lec-lec arguments! I'm a big boy - LOL...

(If anything got "settled" on CF they'd go outta business)

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

Well OK then. I had a 8hp 4-stroke outboard on my sub-30ft sailboat.
When it failed to start (again) and caused my boat to smash into a barge I had enough,
and replaced it with an ELECTRIC OUTBOARD.

So now it has all the advantages of an outboard, all those of an electric.
It weighs much less than a gas outboard, which negates the problem of outboard weight on the transom. No exhaust to cause cavitation in reverse.
Can instantly go into reverse, no clunking in/out of gear.
A much longer leg so it never came out of the water.
And it won't get stolen because they don't know what it is.

Feel better?

So did you put a 6KW motor on?
How many batteries - a/h & weight?
How do you charge it?
What is your unrecharged duration at 80%?

BTW - The club mate who did the maxi conversion used a 2kw torqeedo and claims 5 knots in flat water - I am skeptical. That's 2.5hp on a 2500kg boat. It draws 80 amps at WOT. Oh, and that's at 24volts.

Nesting, Portable, Folding Boats & Dinghies UK - Nestaway Boats Ltd - Torqeedo Cruise 2 & 4kW motors

On and off the dock electric may be a good choice for some. Weekend daysailing with a shore power charger for example.

[brownoarsman]

Well, I will have to relocate my swim ladder in order to center it, but I guess I'll pay that price.
Nimble, if you were going to an electric outboard, why not an electric inboard? Was it just that your prop shaft hole was already closed up, or, since you got rid of the weight disadvantage, all the other pros made it worthwhile?
Ex-calif, the Telstar 28 tri has the outboard connected to the tiller. As I recall, some form of rod clamped around the rudder post that moves the outboard. The connection could be disabled by removing a locking pin. Lots of weird engineering on that boat though!


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[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

At my age it is really hard to raise and lower a 4-cycle and they don't like to be placed on the wrong side.

FWIW, there are outboard models with power tilt and trim.

-Chris