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Old 19-04-2013, 12:09   #61
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

That was in response to Cheechako, sorry should have quoted.
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Old 19-04-2013, 12:17   #62
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I agree. I'm blessed with a self-bleeding pump on both engine and genset and I can HEAR them getting rid of air when I have had the fuel system opened up after maintenance.

Lucky, I spent a day tiring to get my Perkins to start after rebuilding it, two things I discovered. 1) The pump must be bled, 2) Even though every one I spoke to said " Gee my Perkins starts right up even when cold" they all use the glow plugs, just don't tell you that. I was thinking "Starts right up" meant no need for glow plugs and was wondering why mine would not start with out them. (don't need them when the engine is hot though).

John
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Old 19-04-2013, 14:43   #63
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

In addition to atomized fuel and compression you must have air. Make sure your breather is not restricted. If your spraying ether, you have probably already checked this.

-Bypass the primary pump by putting a 12 volt electric pump in the line.
- Loosen all 4 injector lines at the injectors(loosen the nuts to a point they are almost off and pull the lines so they move inside the nut).
-Try starting the engine. You should start getting spurts of fuel and air out of the lines(around the nuts).
-When the air stops coming out tighten the nuts(keep cranking the engine over). After you tighten the first nut that has all fuel and no air coming out, the engine should start to run roughly, then tighten the other 3 as the air bubbles disappear. Don't hesitate to spray WD40 in the air intake while trying this or a LITTLE ether to get the engine to turn faster.
I am assuming the injector pump is installed correctly and in time.
You may have to try this a few times. If the starter gets hot let it cool before trying again.
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Old 19-04-2013, 15:39   #64
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

I doubt it is the injection pump!
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Old 19-04-2013, 15:51   #65
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

You guys are great and thanx for all the help! We took all the suggestions and tried to get a troubleshooting plan together for the day.

Today we took the first pump, put it on a bench vise. Hooked up an electric fuel pump to a jerry jug. Attached all of my injectors on the original fuel lines. Turned it with a drill motor and bled it. It started firing the injectors.

Then turned to look at the injector drive. Removed the water pump">raw water pump which runs off the same gear as the injector pump. It turns when the engine is cranked. Pulled the inspection/timing cover off of the injector pump and checked that it turned with the engine. Both checked fine.

Return fuel. Does anybody know how much return fuel there should be coming out of the pump? Is there some failure at the secondary filter that might send too much return fuel pressure back at the injector pump?
Its all I have left to look at.

If nothing else we will sail 960 miles to Ft Lauderdale on Monday without an engine. Supposedly, there are Westerbeke gurus there. My mechanic here is a jack-of-all, instead of the "Pro-from-Dover". But sailing engine-less scares the willies out of me.

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Old 19-04-2013, 21:20   #66
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

Don't give up yet. Maybe you've finally got a full bleed of the IP? Did you put it back on and try to get the injectors popping?

Interesting theory about the return. What if you routed the return pipe to a bucket and tried again?

At this point, it seems possible to me that you just never got a complete bleed on the pump itself, so it was pumping fuel but not at full pressure. But I'm not there, and I'm only getting a partial read on things via your reports.
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Old 19-04-2013, 21:31   #67
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

As long as you have sails you aren't stranded. Consider ditching the engine.
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Old 19-04-2013, 21:47   #68
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Don't give up yet. Maybe you've finally got a full bleed of the IP? Did you put it back on and try to get the injectors popping?

Interesting theory about the return. What if you routed the return pipe to a bucket and tried again?

At this point, it seems possible to me that you just never got a complete bleed on the pump itself, so it was pumping fuel but not at full pressure. But I'm not there, and I'm only getting a partial read on things via your reports.
I agree, might just have another go at it... You are going to have to put it all back together anyway....

Good luck.
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Old 20-04-2013, 07:41   #69
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

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I do actually have that manual. The info in it is far beyond what the amateur can work with, but its cool to be able to see what's happening inside it.

But thanks for the offer Happy!
You're welcome! It is rather complicated, but again... I had my entire IP dismantled... It was mostly for the diagram of the internals connected to the stop lever if we had a problem there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Don't give up yet. Maybe you've finally got a full bleed of the IP? Did you put it back on and try to get the injectors popping?

Interesting theory about the return. What if you routed the return pipe to a bucket and tried again?

At this point, it seems possible to me that you just never got a complete bleed on the pump itself, so it was pumping fuel but not at full pressure. But I'm not there, and I'm only getting a partial read on things via your reports.
AGREEEEEEED!!!!!!! There is no way this engine won't start if your injectors are popping on your bench set-up, and you can transfer your popping injectors to the place where they live!!! I love the suggested idea of feeding your return to a separate container... Tee it right at the injector rail to eliminate all return pressure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v 'Faith' View Post
I agree, might just have another go at it... You are going to have to put it all back together anyway....

Good luck.
This is so going to work....
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Old 20-04-2013, 07:51   #70
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonko View Post
If nothing else we will sail 960 miles to Ft Lauderdale on Monday without an engine. Supposedly, there are Westerbeke gurus there. My mechanic here is a jack-of-all, instead of the "Pro-from-Dover". But sailing engine-less scares the willies out of me.

Wayne & Dana
WWW.GalleyWenchTales.com
Last week we sailed 225 miles from Antigua to Puerto Rico on Genoa only because our mainsail head car broke for the third time in 6 months. It was a slow ride but not at all scary. Of course we had both engines available had we needed them. Granted this is not the same as your situation but sailing to Florida engineless should not be difficult unless you want to stop in some tight places along the way.

If you are so inclined, I can give you the name of a decent mechanic here in Puerto Rico. It's not far out of your way to Florida and might give you that peace of mind you long for.
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Old 20-04-2013, 09:10   #71
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

Can you run the engine on an electric fuel pump alone and by-pass the injector pump entirely? Sorry if this is overly simplistic... just trying to help. I have an electric fuel pump on my Perkins 4-108 that I use for priming and bleeding the system (which works great), and I believe the engine will run off the electric fuel pump alone but I have not tried that. Good luck.
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Old 20-04-2013, 09:30   #72
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

In response to the return line /amount of fuel. As I remember not much there on my 4-108, a little trickle.
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Old 20-04-2013, 09:51   #73
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Lots of folks with lots of ideas. Aside from what I've already posted and now that you've removed the injection pump, I'm compelled to write...


Recommend that you take great pains to insure that the injector pump timing is absolutely correct after you re-install it. From the description of the shutdown, I'd bet you only had a leak on the suction side of your fuel system. I would have verified each component starting with the fuel tank pickup tube continuing up to and including the lift pump diaphragm.

All of the hypotheses and disassembly described here is what the guy who taught me basic and advanced diesel calls "Easter Egg Hunting." You may well have induced additional faults in so doing. My recommendation assumes that you're pretty new at troubleshooting a diesel. If that assumption is true, you should put your system back together as best you can, find the nearest somebody who REALLY knows what he/she is doing, sail there, get out your wallet (or something else of value to the expert) and put yourself in their hands. Don't forget that the cruiser anchored next to you might be that expert.

Diesel engines are not mysterious but I found that a formal training program helps immensely. Good luck. It'll be fine and you'll learn from the experience.
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Old 20-04-2013, 09:57   #74
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

bozsail - not a chance in hell that your electric fuel pump will take the place of the injection pump. there's a reason why your fuel pump weighs eight ounces and your injection pump weighs 20 pounds.....
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Old 20-04-2013, 11:32   #75
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Re: Stranded in St Thomas

Hi Wonko.

You have had some really good advice here, and some to disregard as they did not read your original post.

Assuming your injector pump and attached injectors are bench tested as working, there is no reason to assume that they will not be doing likewise when installed on the engine.

Assuming the timing marks have been observed and it is correctly timed

Assuming there is compression

Assuming there is fresh air... it should start.

You mentioned it stopped suddenly. Was that exactly as if the stop lever had been pulled?

Or did it stutter, hesitate, and then stop?

During your starting efforts, have you noticed black smoke coming back out of the inlet?

Take off the exhaust pipe at the injection elbow, (and your raw water pump should be disabled to avoid stacking) and take note of the emissions. White smoke, grey, or black? and most important...is there flow of air/gas into and out of the engine. (not thinking about valves here, thinking about carbon build up, and a cascading failure)

OK my reasoning is that I have seen this before. It seemed like a total mystery at the time until the AHA moment. A chunk of carbon fell off the inside of the exhaust just at the injection point and blocked the exhaust. If there is no outlet there will be no inlet. The shut down was as if the stop lever had been pulled. A symptom during troubleshooting was black smoke lazily wafting up out of the air intake.

Check that while cranking there is flow of gasses out of the exhaust.
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