Starter Problems

[sailorboy1]

My Yanmar engine runs like a champ! But sometimes I have a problem with the switch engaging the starter when starting the engine. Had to "jump" the soleniod once to get it started. Other times it seems have to turn the key "just right". This weekend I couldn't get the key to start the engine (wasn't in a hurry as we were in clear water with no one around), so I went to do the jump thing on the starter but after I got the engine cover off and went to do it I had my wife try the key and of course it started right up. So I started thinking it was a heat thing and started leaving the cover open to let heat out of the engine compartment, but in thinking about it I have had the same problem on first start-up with engine cold.

So what you others think? is this a starter problem, a key switch problem, or a wiring problem to the starter, or something else? The last thing I want is this problem to happen one day when I really need the engine to start NOW!

Thanks

[Hud3]

Sounds like the switch itself or a bad connection in the ignition circuit to me. Have you poked around behind the instrument panel?

[Badsanta]

Yanmar has a history of this problem. The wiring to the starter solenoid is a little small. Works fine when new but with age and corrosion cause a voltage drop and intermittent starting. First check your connections. On mine I found that the PO had run two new wires from the starter switch to the solenoid. There are other fixes and lots of info on this. Also it helps if you state the size and age yanmar.

[sailorboy1]

Haven't pulled the panel or crawled back into the locker to it to check out connections yet, but or course will need to. My belief is that it a switch itself problem and I was thinking of installing a push button , but haven't decided. Do you think all deisel engine panel switches are basically the same?

[swagman]

Check out the easiest connections first.

First batteries to ensure current is OK all the time.

Then all others relative to ignition circuit, meaning not just panel but also on the starter motor relay.

This little gubbins is usually usually hanging below the starter motor on the Hitachi / Yanma set up and often the cause of such issues. If it does start to play up it works somedays, 2 minutes later it may not. Only cure is replacement but not expensive to do this.

Good luck. Just gone through the same scenario.

JOHN

[Badsanta]

You are not alone. Google yanmar starting problems

[Chief Engineer]

Check that pesky inline fuse right before the starter

[speciald@ocens.]

Are you jumping the solenoid or the starter. If the solenoid closes - its the wiring or ignition switch. You can short the ignition switch to see if the switch is the problem. I had the same problem last Winter - the solenoid was bad - alot cheaper than a starter.

Try tapping on the solenoid with a screwdriver handle, sometimes they stick. If this solves your problem; replace the solenoid.

[imagine2frolic]

I had the same problem, and it was a crimped wire in the middle of the harness. For a quick fix I ran the hot from one key to the next. It's a catamaran thing with redundancy............i2f

[sailorboy1]

All good suggestions, thanks. Since sometimes I turn the key and nothing happens and I turn the key back to off and then retry and it starts right up; I'm more inclined to believe it is the switch itself not making a connection unless it turns "just right". The starter of course is a PITA to get to on the other side from the access panel. But what I could see of it the other day the terminals are tight and clean. I didn't notice a fuse in the line, will have to check into that (fuse in the line seems a damed if you are damed if you're not thing). I didn't even hear a "click" from the soleniod the other day so don't think it "sticks", and it started right up 2 minutes later when my wife tried it (diferent set of hands).

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

All good suggestions, thanks. Since sometimes I turn the key and nothing happens and I turn the key back to off and then retry and it starts right up; I'm more inclined to believe it is the switch itself not making a connection unless it turns "just right". .

It's the wiring Don, like all Yanmar starting problems. There are many posts on this site and others on this subject. My wife used to think there was a "sweet spot" on the starter button you had to press similar to your thinking you have to turn the key "just right". Of course that wasn't it - it was the wiring. I'll paste what I've got on this problem again. Can't attribute it to the right sources as it's a collection I've saved over the years.


Rick,
Don't swap starters. It's not the problem.
Sitting next to the starter are two molded connectors. The larger one has two larger pins in it. Spread the pins back apart. There is a similar connector about a foot off of the panel. Do the same there.
This is a normal problem with the older Yanmar panels and harnesses.







PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:41 pm Post subject: hard starting Reply with quote
The problem with aging Yanmars not engaging the starter is the wiring. Adding a relay to the starter solves the problem. You can use a continuous duty marine solenoid from West Marine or pick one up at NAPA for the purpose.

The solenoid should have four posts, two high amp, two low amp. On the low amp circuit, connect the starter key wire to one post, and ground the second post. Enaging the key will trip this circuit. On the high amp side, connect a #8 guage wire from the solenoid to the battey/alternator post on the starter motor. Then from the second high amp post run a #8 guage wire back to the post on the starter where the wire from the key originally came from.

Engaging the key will trip the low amp circuit which in turm engages the high amp connection which gives you a very healthy current to the starter solenoid.

Another thing you can do is add a remote start switch (for example near the engine) by connecting a second switch (make sure it is fused) beyween the battery side of the high amp circuit on the solenoid and the key side of the low amp circuit.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject: starter problem Reply with quote
I had the same problem--each time I heard a click from the starter, but it wouldn't start turning the motor. I had to hit the start button multiple times, and eventually it would start. Last year I bought a new starter and replaced it, but still had the same problem. Then I read some of the other posts that mentioned that the wires were not sufficiently thick to handle the current from the switch to the solenoid, and they recommended putting in a second solenoid. I found it hard to believe that this would work because the wire seems to be around 12 gauge already which you would think is sufficient, but I figured I'd try it and I purchased a solenoid model COLE HERSEE 24117-01-BP 201337 from west marine, and installed it yesterday. I used thick cables 4 gauge from the battery switch to the solenoid, and 10 gauge from the solenoid to the starter (although you may want to go to 4 gauge for both). Then tested it 4 times-- each time the engine started on the first try. So this fixed my problem.
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Sorry to continue this thread on the Yanmar starting problem, but I'm 12 volt challenged as well, and a bit confused on how to rewire the problem away.

My 1988 IP31 has the 3GM30F engine, and I've had this oft-described starting problem for most of this boats life. I'm in agreement that the under spec'd wiring harness is the problem, and I would throw in the cheap 30 amp fuse holder, that appears to be 16 gauge wire between the 10 or 12 gauge wiring running from the key switch to the starter solenoid. I bought the Cole Hersee #24117 solenoid, and after tracing my wiring from starter button, key switch, alternator and starter solenoid, and then reviewing the wiring setup from "dgrosz" (4/23/05), and "mjs2" (5/26/05), I'm still confused.

"mjs2" is running a wire from the "battery switch" (?) to the solenoid. I assume he meant the starter key switch. "dgrosz" describes grounding the CH solenoid on one low post, then connect the other low post to the starter key (assume at the red wire post). Then from the CH high post, run a wire to the starter solenoid post where the current red fused wire and battery cable terminal are attached. That would replace the red wire running up to the starter solenoid, via the questionable wiring harness and fuse connector. He then connects the other high post on the CH solenoid to the alternator battery ("BAT") terminal. I see were this takes the red wire and its fuse from the wiring harness out of the mix. I also assume that the existing starter solenoid mounted on the starter stays in place. Neither really states that. I assume the CH solenoid and heavier wire (I'll use 8 gauge) is doing nothing more than to get away from the wiring harness (at least the red wire key-to-starter solenoid part of it). If I'm correct up to this point, it would appear to me that I need to remove the red wire running from the alternator/BAT terminal to the battery power terminal on the existing starter solenoid. Do I have this right ? Are there different wiring harnesses by boat manufacturer ? (Note, a 1987 Cal 33 in my boat yard has same engine and wiring harness, and the same problem) If I'm wrong, can someone describe the setup simply for a boat with the Yanmar panel with a starter button and key switch ? Up here in RI, I will not be firing up the engine for another couple of weeks, and would like to avoid blowing out something.

Starter switch wiring...

This seems to be a common problem on Yanmars. I have it from time-to-time on my 4 cylinder 4JH-TE. I have done a whole bunch of research on it, and the general consensus is that the problem is caused by the wiring to the starter solenoid.
Yanmar starter solenoids have two windings, a high current coil that pulls the solenoid in (and then is turned off), and a lower current "holding" coil that holds the plunger in place. The result is a brief high current spike that happens as you push the starter button.
If the wiring to the starter button is too long, too smaller gage, or the starter switch has developed some contact resistance, the added resistance will not allow sufficient current through the solenoid to pull-in adequately during the initial current spike (Ohm's Law).
The general consensus (which I have not yet adopted) is to install an automotive type relay close to the engine, and use heavier gage wire from the battery, through the relay contacts, to the starter solenoid. In other words, the starter switch merely closes the relay, which then supplies the initial current surge through a low resistance path.
Whether this is your problem I can't say, but there are numerous threads around on various forums that indicate that this is the fix.

It's on my "to-do" list...

For the last few years I have had an intermittent starting problem. The boat would start every time while at the dock, while hooked into shore power. However, when out on the water for an hour or so, the boat may start or may not. I would then shut down all instruments, fridge, cabin lights or anything else that was ?on?. After a few minutes the boat might start or might not start. I started keeping track of temperature, humidity, length of time off the dock, etc. ? I couldn?t find a pattern. It was very frustrating; a few times I would have to wait 15 minutes before it would start.

I had the same problem this weekend in Raritan Bay, filled to the gills with fishing boats and then the wind died off, the perfect time to start the engine and dodge the always moving fishing boats. When I pushed the start button ? nothing! I had even removed the power for the fans and dash ? figuring I would get more power to the starter solenoid?still nothing. I was done; it had to be fixed ASAP.

I read several dozen articles regarding this problem, some of which suggested grinding down the pins on the starter and starter solenoid. Others, suggested it was due to corrosion on the wires in the starting loop, key switch, momentary on (push button) and the wire leading to the starter solenoid. I found no corrosion and replaced both the key start and push button ? no success, I still had starting problems. There were still more articles blaming the problem on the batteries - new AGM batteries installed and I still have the problem....

The solution: replace the 12 awg wire with a 10 awg wire from the key switch to the push button and replace the second 12 awg from push button to the starter solenoid. It was real easy and once you have all the necessary replacement parts, it takes about 15 minutes to fix.

From the key switch there is a 10 awg wire coming in, on the other terminal there are three wires, a solid red, red with black stripe and white. The red with black stripe and solid red are for powering the fans and dash (alarm, lights and gauges). The white runs to the momentary on with another white 12 awg wire, from the second terminal, running to the starter solenoid. The first step was to fish, using an electricians ?fish tape?, the wire through the console to the aft section of the boat. After fishing the wire thru, the connections were simple, 4 10-12 awg connectors with 8 awg rings.

I left the boat on for about an hour, with everything ?on? (water pumps, anchor lights, all cabin lights, radio?s, hot water heater, autopilot, etc). The boat started three times with ease. The true test will come later this week when I am out for a two hour sail and she either starts or doesn?t on the first try!

GM Starting Problems QED

As I had documented in an earlier post, I had intermittent starting problems, when you hit the push button to start the engine, nothing would happen. The solution was to replace the 12AWG wires from the key switch to the push button and from the push button to the starter solenoid with 10AWG wires.

I had the boat out recently and the problem seems to be resolved. I actually started the boat several times during a recent cruise. It’s really nice to know that you engine is there right when you need it.

Chris - the 8AWG ring connector is a size measurement – you have a 10AWG wire connection with an 8AWG ring connector, if the ring connector is to big you won’t get “full” contact on the keyed and push button wire posts.

[Bloodhound]

Had a similar problem, and in emergency jumped the solenoid. Later replaced solenoid (and left some flesh behind in the engine compartment to appease the engine gods) but to absolutely no avail. Finally gave in and replaced the starter switch --- no problems ever since. Lesson: start with the easy stuff.

[DeborahLee]

I had my engine rebuilt in winter of '09. In July of '09 the starter was found to have a cracked (destroyed) the end cap, gear end. It was replaced and now the engine blew a 100 amp fuse on the starter and when I looked removed it, the end cap was cracked again and this time a piece had come off and wedged between the fly wheel and casing. Both these starters were after market and the starter shop said the problem was not the starter but kick back. I haven't had any problems with kick back starting. I think the return spring is not strong and the starter hangs up and cracks on shut down when I'm sure I get some kick back. I' m going with an OEM this time but if anyone has any other ideas or had the same problem I'd really like to hear. It's getting expensive replacing the starter every year.

[sailorboy1]

Wow I had forgotten about this thread.

On the orginal question/problem in the end it turned out to be a bad connection in the wiring harness and I had to put a jumper in around it.

That same harness connector later had other problems so there was a general problem (moisture) that effected it even though it was in the engine box.

[Kettlewell]

On the cracked starter--are you saying the gear is cracked? In any case, it sounds like the starter gear is sticking on the flywheel because the gears mesh too tightly. May just be a matter of fitting some spacers in there or readjusting the bolts so the starter isn't jammed tightly against the flywheel.