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Old 01-08-2015, 14:27   #1
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pirate Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

2nd Owner removed Westerbeke 4-107.
I can get the boat with re-built Westerbeke 4-107 re-installed or NEW Beta 25?
Westerbeke 4-107 is 38 HP...what HP does the Beta 25 put out and is it enough for the Allied Luders 33?
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Old 01-08-2015, 14:44   #2
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

I went with the Beta 30, which is the same basic engine as the 25. Still 3 cylinders and about 100 pounds less that the Westerbeast. The 30 works well in my Allied Seawind II which is more than 15000 pounds. Ultimately, the decision will depend on what you intend to use the boat for and how long you anticipate sailing her. Although parts are available for the 4-94 and 4-107 for now (easier for a 107) they are not easy to get in a timely manner, so how far afield you are intending on traveling certainly has a bearing.


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Old 01-08-2015, 15:07   #3
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pirate Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

Displacement of the Luders is 12,800...she is 2200 less weight than your Seawind. What is the horsepower on your 30?
Do you think the Beta 25 is big enough...that's what the yard is recommending and the yardmaster had a Luders...maybe he knows?
Do you know the horsepower of a Beta 25?
The 4-107 has 38 HP.
I will be living on the boat and sailing her in the Chesapeake Bay on the weekends until I can learn to sail her and get some time off from work...and then I want to find a crew and sail offshore.
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Old 01-08-2015, 15:52   #4
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

I've got an allied seawind II also, we've got a Phasor (Kubota) p3-2805 (28 hp @ 3000 rpm) and I feel that it's plenty.

The beta 25 you're asking about is 25 hp @ 3600 rpm. I think it'll be fine.


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Old 01-08-2015, 17:00   #5
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

You need between 20 and 30hp for that displacement boat unless pulling skiers is your thing. The 4-107 was undoubtedly used in the first place as it, like the Atomic Four for gas, controlled the diesel market when the boat was built. There just weren't many small marinized diesels available back then.

We've got a Yanmar 3GM30F in our 13,000# boat that puts out 27HP. It's more than enough power for the boat.

One thing going for a 4-107 re-install is everything is in place for that engine. Should be a drop in taking less than a day to do the R&R with enough time to go sailing left over. Will guarantee you'll spend more than 8 hours doing all the little nitty gritties to change to a new engine. At a $100 an hour or whatever diesel mechanics get in your area, that adds up to a boat unit or more right quick. The 4-107 should also be cheaper as there are rebuild shops that sell drop in rebuilt engines less the marinizing stuff that you can swap over from your present engine. Another is the weight. The 4-107 will be considerably heavier than the 3 cylinder Japanese tractor engines. Might have to add a bunch of ballast to get the boat back in trim
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Old 01-08-2015, 18:04   #6
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

Check out betamarines website, specifically their forum. They will respond to your concerns promptly and seem genuinely interested in hooking you up with the best engine/transmission/prop for your boat.
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Old 01-08-2015, 18:16   #7
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

25 hp will be fine, and the extra 100 pounds of weight out of the boat will help, as will the extra room in the engine space. But roverhi has a good point about the install costs. Beta do do custom mounts to suit, but things like exhaust runs, wiring looms, and controls all take time.

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Old 02-08-2015, 09:25   #8
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

Have been cruising with halberd raspy 35 in puget sound Wa and if your use does not include any tidal currents the 25 might work. here in Wa you would not be able to sell it with 25 hp..you will not have a 25 hp engine at your disposal as you will most likely not wnt to operate at full throttle..if any advise overpower and run at reasonable rams for peace and quiet most likely better gph my boat weighs 12500 but loaded it is over 15000 its amazing how things add up..same principle as car engine small engine run close to max or bigger just take it easy..most Important go with recent tech products the rating on older engines is not the same as todays your usable hp in the old westerbeak is probably less than 30 unless your run it with the valves about to float out the top..my plan is always to over power.
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:03   #9
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

TrentePieds' design displacement is 9.6K, so call it 12 grand fully laden. 25Hp @ 3.6K Vetus = Mitsubishi. Overpowered for the Straits of Georgia. I run 'er at 1.5K and that gives hull speed.

If I go to 1.8K RPM she climbs her bow wave and becomes unruly. Every so often I go to 2K just to give 'er a blow-through.


Much depends on propeller diameter and pitch. It isn't all to do with rated horsepower. In the crudest terms, diameter determines RPM at any given "throttle" setting, pitch determines "bite" on the water and needs to be optimized for your hull speed.

IMO a Beta 25 is a good choice, though on the big side for a boat not much bigger than TrentePieds.

But we are splitting hairs. As someone else said, or implied, slong as you "are close" and slong as you "have enuff", finer distinctions become academic.

So go with the Beta. FAR better parts availability, FAR longer into the future. Find a parts house that carries parts for the basic Kubota employed in industrial rather than marine use. It's really only the exhaust bits that need "marinizing"

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Old 02-08-2015, 10:11   #10
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

I think the 25 is not enough. Especially on an engine rated at 3500 rpm. I would look for an engine rated at 25 at maybe 2600 rpm.
Sure , the 25 will work, but not be optimal. I guess I don't understand why you only have those two choices? Does the seller happen to have both those engines?
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Old 02-08-2015, 12:02   #11
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I think the 25 is not enough. Especially on an engine rated at 3500 rpm. I would look for an engine rated at 25 at maybe 2600 rpm.
I have an Irwin 34 with the same displacement as the OP's, with a Yanmar 3GMD rated 22HP @3400 RPM. I could cruise at hull speed (7.3kn) @ 3000RPM; that is more than enough power.
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:20   #12
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

The owner has removed the Westerbeke 4-107 and it is sitting beside the boat covered with a tarp...I saw it yesterday and it looks pretty clean. He removed the engine from the Luders because he said 'he wanted a new engine to cruise with'. ..and then he said 'your choice to install new 25 Beta or return Westerbeke to its bed'...so as the deal stands now he is selling me the boat at a reduced price and its up to me to choose and install a new diesel and sell the used Westerbeke...and I don't want to UNDERPOWER the boat...I can install what I want but have no knowledge of the subject...the Beta 25 has been recommended by the owner as a good choice???
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:42   #13
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

1....does the westerfreke work? how many hours on the engine?

2//are you going to cruise this boat outside of waters in which you can find parts for whatever dream engine you have in mind?

3..what is your allowance--is it large enough to repower when you feel urge
how is your engine room configured--which engines other than perkins and westerfreke fit onto your stringers and mounts without major financial involvement, aka , changing the mountings and mounts for this new prolly smaller in size engine???

4. what about the prop..do both engines require same or is it a major expense of re propping and mebbe a new shaft... much to consider here

5.you will have more idiotic ideas coming from a forum question like htis one than zits on face of man in moon, and still not have your answer... so, my question is---what does your gut say?

westerfreke is a fairly burly engine, perkins is burlier. westerfreke has wet sleeves. perkins dry .
parts for westerfreke and perkie are able to be found easily without need for dealer or distributor involvement. everyone uses tractors and forklifts, and 108 perkins is that engine block. rebulds on many engines are inexpensive when ye can do em yourself.
diesel engines last many years. the idling bs is just that--go to a truck stop and watch these engines idle for hours, yet their longevity factor is unhampered. go figger. diesels are meant not to be turned on and of without a gooood using. i learned this at a young age.
is strangely humorous how the usage of items loong term used by folks on land are converted to use as marine items and suddenly their function and design are questioned..
come on, guys, this is not reinvention of da wheel, this is continuation and additional uses of something that has been around a while. not rocket science.

if a female can do it, so can you.

diesel engines live forever..more than 10,000 hours. try conversion of your hours into overland miles as per truck engines, or years of uninterupted service, as in forklifts and generators and tractors....guess wherefrom your engine came....
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:08   #14
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pirate Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

Whats' the difference between WET and DRY SLEEVES???

The Westerbeke ...I think it works but owner says it needs rebuild...doing a survey on the boat next Monday and will find out how many hours on the Westerbeke...my guess is not many hours...original owner was a light user.

Will sail boat mostly in the Chesapeake Bay.

Stringers set up for the Westerbeke 17" on center engine mounts...Beta 25 requires 14 1/2 on center engine mounts...the price quoted of approx $10,000 for install of Beta 25 includes reconfigure to accept Beta 25.

The prop for the original Westerbeke is 13" 3-blade...do not know if Beta will require new shaft and prop?

My gut says:

1.Because the original engine has been removed and is 35 years old I should install a new engine that will be more efficient and pollute the air less and because it will be a smaller block will provide better access for oil change and maintenance.

2.My main concern is the horsepower question. The Westerbeke puts out 38 HP and the Beta 25 puts out 25 HP. That's a big difference right? I DO NOT WANT TO UNDERPOWER THE BOAT...she has a deep keel and weighs 12,000 pounds...my understanding is that the Beta 25 puts out 25 HP @ 3600 RPM...would it not be better to have a diesel that puts out 25 HP at say 2600 RPM??

3.Allied and the designer of the Luders probably had a reason for powering the boat with 38 HP but I do not know their thinking!
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:27   #15
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Re: Should I Re-Power 1967 Allied Luders 33 If I Buy Her

My 30 ft medium displacement boat had a 30 hp rated at 2400 rpm in it and was fine.
My 31 ft medium displacement boat had a new 22 hp in it and was underpowered at times.
Is the 25HP offerred with the boat? I's unclear to me. It will certainly get you in and out of the harbor.
If not, enquire the cost of rebuilding, buy the boat and get the 4-107 rebuilt
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