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Old 05-02-2015, 14:29   #61
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

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Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
He... Hee...

We do the best we can... With what we've got...
I think that is why we get the "tolerated" but undesired behavior vibe...
Should we move this thread to Sailor's Confessional?
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Old 05-02-2015, 14:39   #62
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Having discovered several effective secondary (after the “fail-safe” captive mounts) methods of securing the engine against a rollover; perhaps, it would be worthwhile to discuss methods of securing other potential “missiles” against a capsize.
Ie:
Refer’ Compressor
Batteries
Tool Boxes
Canned goods
etc
Actually, my bad jokes aside, good point. My personal obsession is the batteries as I figure electricity is one of the things you want to know will be working if you do get rolled. Pumps will need to run, radio and lights will probably be needed also. I've seen a few setups where there was enough movement in the batteries to seriously strain the connector cables, so although the batteries may have remained contained, they might not necessarily still be connected after a rollover.

Books I have read that described a rollover emphasised the shear demoralising mess afterwards and the fatiguing effect that had on the crew.

From your short starting list, I realise I am good for the batteries, food and fridge bits, but my toolboxes are all points of dangerous (heavy) failure. Thank you GordMay, I will address those immediately.

Matt
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Old 05-02-2015, 15:17   #63
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

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Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Actually, my bad jokes aside, good point. My personal obsession is the batteries as I figure electricity is one of the things you want to know will be working if you do get rolled. Pumps will need to run, radio and lights will probably be needed also. I've seen a few setups where there was enough movement in the batteries to seriously strain the connector cables, so although the batteries may have remained contained, they might not necessarily still be connected after a rollover.

Books I have read that described a rollover emphasised the shear demoralising mess afterwards and the fatiguing effect that had on the crew.

From your short starting list, I realise I am good for the batteries, food and fridge bits, but my toolboxes are all points of dangerous (heavy) failure. Thank you GordMay, I will address those immediately.

Matt
In addition, if you want to try to cover all your bases, you may wish to configure a means to drain or pump out your waterlift muffler (assuming a wet exhaust system)

Even a knockdown approaching horizontal, much less going upside down, will likely put water back into the engine, if the waterlift hasn't been emptied, or isolated somehow...

That could suck, surviving an inversion, yet still having to deal with clearing an engine hydro lock in the aftermath... ;-)
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Old 06-02-2015, 00:13   #64
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

Eeergh... not sure HOW you could do that on our system.... Good point though, I'll see if the old trick of staring at the problem for half an hour suggests a solution.
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Old 06-02-2015, 05:32   #65
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

After watching the video that Gord May posted,I wonder if it's even practical to equip a CRUISING boat for rollover.Other than fastening bats. down,putting latches on all hatches,securing/lashing heavy "occasionally" used eqpt-I think the avg. cruising boat is bound to have some "daily use" items that are going to be loose.
Race boats usually have bare bones interiors &, I presume,would/should be designed with proper stowage for this possibility.
Regarding the eng. becoming waterlocked,I discovered, thru my own stupidity,that opening the decompressor lever solves that problem quickly.
If the above mentioned "heavy" items are secured,you should be able to survive a knockdown,which IMHO is much more likely to happen,than a complete rollover.There will be a mess to clean up,but as long as crew don't get bashed by a flying jug of rum,it should be survivable.

Check out how rollover rescue vessels are eqpd.-may suggest ideas.

Me-I'm going to watch the wx,keep the pointy end into the seas,& hope for the best.
Cheers/Len
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:17   #66
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
...Crew members....
You mean desirable crew members... Who wouldn't make the knockdown 1000x worse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Should we move this thread to Sailor's Confessional?
OK... But I think need a way for us to post anonymously.... But I'll know it's you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Actually, my bad jokes aside, good point. My personal obsession is the batteries as I figure electricity is one of the things you want to know will be working if you do get rolled. Pumps will need to run, radio and lights will probably be needed also. I've seen a few setups where there was enough movement in the batteries to seriously strain the connector cables, so although the batteries may have remained contained, they might not necessarily still be connected after a rollover.
Matt
Man... So incredibly important... If they aren't secure enough for a rollover... They aren't secure enough for the crap I sail through...

1" air gap 4 sides... Block wedged on the corners... Top bar firmly pressing down!
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Old 06-02-2015, 19:04   #67
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

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Regarding the eng. becoming waterlocked,I discovered, thru my own stupidity,that opening the decompressor lever solves that problem quickly.
Yes, simple solution, IF you have a decompression lever.

Matt
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Old 06-02-2015, 21:44   #68
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

GiLow

Going thru your heartache myself installing a new donk. The positive 'captive' type mounts I found like you were way over the non boat ~$20 price for a polybond brand that I settled on.
They have the same static 3mm deflection necessary for a 4 cylinder 4 stoke. To prvent excessive vertical movement (noting normal vibration less than this) I'm using a steel angle placed over the top and between the two mounts on either side of engine with a 'loose preventative' bolt thru to the engine rail beneath. I have taken the precaution of designing mounts that will accommodate the 'proper' polyflex's etc and also allow different engine height since I haven't bought the gearbox yet and these have varying output shaft drop heights. I'm hoping it will not be necessary but I have also allowed for 'tie rods' parallel to main shaft to control execessive end play if the ceamic shaft seal leaks.

Good pont re Capsize and water ingress. Another nail in the coffin for not using a waterblock. I hadnt thought as far as that but I was mind full its possible to get water in when cranking excessively. I'm running a insulated dry exhaust well above the waterline, thence water injection and a wet down hill run to the outlet. Means a slightly higher head requirement for the water pump.
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Old 06-02-2015, 22:06   #69
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

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Going thru your heartache myself installing a new donk. The positive 'captive' type mounts I found like you were way over the non boat ~$20 price for a polybond brand that I settled on.
Aaargghhh! $20 each!?? I was feeling good at finding my mounts for $120 each! Now I DO have heartache!

Oh my poor, poor wallet.


P.S. Adams 40. Excellent choice!
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Old 06-02-2015, 22:09   #70
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Having discovered several effective secondary (after the “fail-safe” captive mounts) methods of securing the engine against a rollover; perhaps, it would be worthwhile to discuss methods of securing other potential “missiles” against a capsize.
BTW, separate thread started in Construction and Maintenance.

Planning for a roll-over - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:14   #71
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

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Small update, not that it changes anything. I carefully inspected one of the mounts today and realise that it does have reasonable rollover protection. The stud that holds the engine is backed by a very large "head" on the underside of the rubber pad. This head is significantly larger than the hole in the metal bracket that supports the rubber pad and so, in theory, cannot pull through.


But, as I said, this does not change anything for me, I will still be fitting a supplemental restraint as I do not feel like trusting the single point of failure represented by the engine mount. There's just too much at stake. If the engine were to break free it would be a catastrophe, and more than likely fatal.


Matt
Just wanted to let you know the same type of mounts are used in some lifeboats: see Vrijwillige Blankenbergse Zeereddingsdienst | VZW (Belgium volunteer coastguard)
They secure 2000kg 700hp engines.
Luckily we never experienced a roll over.

However our dutch neighbours have. They rolled over (first time with the cabin door open) 3 times in a row lost all electronics and lost one engine but made it to port on their own power. You can find the report here: http://www.knrm.nl/_sitefiles/file/K...Margaretha.pdf (no english version sorry, use google translate)

More interesting is the changes that have been made to the more recent lifeboats after this incident.
If the engines could have been restarted faster then the 2 and 3th rollover could have been prevented.
On this boat and ours the engines would stop at 90° heel (already changed that to 110° a few years ago).

On the newer boats dry sump engines are used with a separate lubrication oil tank with a suction half way the tank. This allows the engines to keep running half a minute upside down. Hopefully preventing the same incident.

If these mounts are good enough for self righting life boats they should be good enough for you?

kind regards,

A lifeboat volunteer/ marine engineer
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Old 09-02-2015, 14:10   #72
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

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....If these mounts are good enough for self righting life boats they should be good enough for you?



kind regards,



A lifeboat volunteer/ marine engineer

Well, I must admit I am hopeful, since the mounts I am using are Dutch (Vetus), and so might be the same brand used in your life boats? I was worried that they seemed too cheap when I bought them but after fitting them I feel they are very well made, and the rollover protection seems ok.

Matt

P.S. And the engine is so very much nicer to use now too!


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Old 10-02-2015, 07:14   #73
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

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Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Well, I must admit I am hopeful, since the mounts I am using are Dutch (Vetus), and so might be the same brand used in your life boats? I was worried that they seemed too cheap when I bought them but after fitting them I feel they are very well made, and the rollover protection seems ok.

Matt

P.S. And the engine is so very much nicer to use now too!


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keep in mind VETUS is just a supplier not a manufacturer.
They sell stuff they rebrand as their own. But they normally have quite a high quality standard. I'ts possible they are the same. I'l take a photo if you want it.
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Old 10-02-2015, 12:56   #74
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

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keep in mind VETUS is just a supplier not a manufacturer.
They sell stuff they rebrand as their own. But they normally have quite a high quality standard. I'ts possible they are the same. I'l take a photo if you want it.
Oh, I did not know that. Mine are their HY150's, pictured here.

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Old 14-02-2015, 17:18   #75
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Re: Securing an engine in a rollover

Matt,

The foam deal has worked fine, no mold on the bottom at all. The timber doesn't sweat because the heat doesn't get to it. Previously did the air space business, then went back to this system. I do not think they would protect the mattress very much if we got a lot of water below, as there would be no where for it to drain to.

However, a rollover is a statistically rare event, and like Ben (SnowPetrel) says, no matter what you do to prepare for it, if it happens, you should be prepared to find it a shock, and you need to chill out before chucking anything "ruined" overboard, lest it prove useful later on.

Example, when we had our knockdown that preceded the dismasting event by a day and a half, the perspex dodger windows got bashed in on the Stbd. side. They were jagged, and I feared them as a laceration hazard. Jim persuaded me to not jettison them, and later we washed all the salt off, dried the pieces, and duct taped them back together, hence more protected and less tired on the way to land. Incidentally, those windows turned out not have been made to the thickness we ordered. So, use your calipers and check before accepting them, if you build a hard dodger.

Ann
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