Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-01-2014, 07:37   #106
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,456
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
1. Power / weight.
2. Reliability.
Actually the new 4 stroke outboards are just as reliable as the old 2 strokes, and are much more fuel efficient. Plus, a 5 hp 4 stroke is about equivalent in power to an 8 Hp old model 2 stroke.

Sure it's a bit heavier but puts out more power.

The bracket manufacturers found this out real fast with the newer 4 strokes. People were mounting them on the old 2 stroke brackets rated for the same Hp and the engines were destroying the brackets.
__________________

__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 08:15   #107
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,425
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post

- Storage of more volatile fuel (tanks must be in well vented storage locker)
Yes, this is easy on a cat with the fuel stored in stern cockpit lockers (or somewhere on the bridge deck)
It's not just draining spills, it's ventilation. Gasoline fumes are highly volatile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
- Longevity (95+% of outboards in junkyards have <1000 hours on them)
THIS is the negative. Now do some maths and see if it is really that bad.
Since I expect minimum 5000 hours out my diesel and will probably see 6000-8000, capex is cheaper for diesel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
- Electricity production (noisy Honda generator?)
Who needs petroleum based electricity production on a cat??? We have lived aboard continually since 2010 without generators or alternators. Solar is cheap and cats have plenty of real estate for panels.
Solar is great. I'm looking at the cost to add a radar arch to support 540 watts. I can buy 20 years worth of diesel for the generator for what that project costs. I won't live without occasionally running the AC. Again, you make your choices, if you can live without AC, pure solar will work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
But then again, YMMV!
__________________

__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 10:09   #108
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

For perspective on weight, a Yamaha 30hp 4-stroke weighs 370lbs. Our Volvo 30hp diesel weighs 309-340lbs (depends on transmission choice). Our engines are also not located on the extreme aft of the boat.

You did mean to compare similar sized engines, didn't you? It seems silly to argue a 5hp outboard against a 30hp diesel.

Another poster was correct on outboard over-rev limiters. I was surprised when I found out our new outboard had it, and have seen/heard it work in practice. It works well.

Outboards are not the only engine/trans type to cavitate. That is dependent on drivetrain placement. I have been on a few Lagoons with the saildrive located aft of the rudder in the extreme end that cavitate and over-rev when motoring into chop and waves.

Regarding corrosion - a previous thread on this saw the SD sage with the single treasured Bukh (!!) example go on about how saildrives fizz away the moment they touch water. At the time, I pointed out that I was in a boatyard with about 100 saildrives and none of them showed any signs of corrosion at all.

Currently, I am in a boatyard with 32 drivetrains. 14 of them are saildrives - 4 of them over 20yrs old, none of them less than 8yrs old. None of the saildrives show any sign of corrosion, or any problems at all. Of the shaft drives, 4 of them have problems. One has a very bent shaft, two have shafts so corroded as to needing replacement, and the other has both its shaft and transmission laying underneath it. The shaft looks OK to me, so I don't know why it is out - perhaps it has a slight bend that isn't noticeable by simple sight. I also do not know what is wrong with the transmission.

Unlike others, I don't draw any concrete conclusions from these examples either way.

I find it curious as to how this thread on saildrives gravitated to catamarans. One poster pointed out that a boat who punched a pinnacle with his saildrive had to go a long way to haul out compared to another with a shaft drive who could haul quickly - seemingly without understanding that the situation was the type of boat and not the type of transmission. He also refused to believe that racing boats chose saildrives specifically because of less drag than shaft drives - seemingly believing that boats specifically bred and bought solely for racing would purposefully choose to increase drag for "weight balance" (and conveniently forgetting that the engine can be placed anywhere regardless of drive system).

When you have a treasured unexamined belief system, you must seek validation for it as often as possible. Even if it means refusing to understand that ranges of models and years of engines from one manufacturer differ so completely as to not being able to be categorized together in any way.

To be clear, I would not let a drive system keep me off a boat I wanted. I have owned cruising boats with outboards, shafts and saildrives. I do not have a preference, although I find outboards only good for smaller boats not cruising widely. However, if I came across a good deal on a boat like Jimbo's or 44CC, I would jump on it - particularly 44C's.

If I come across as shrill in support of SD's it is only because of frustration with opinions formed from no actual experience and apparently no actual knowledge of SD's. Not because I think they are the best system - I am only attempting to throw logic and experience into the mix.

And failing, apparently.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 10:13   #109
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Regarding solar - I have heard that some boats are actually made of only one hull. These boats do not have the real estate for solar like full-boats have. They also can have saildrives.

Even on a catamaran, it takes a tremendous amount of solar to keep up on even full-sun passages because shadows easily take half of the power away. Unless you are motoring with sails down and only in certain directions. Without a couple thousand watts, most will need additional charging during multi-day passages with electronics, autopilot, etc running 24/7.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 10:22   #110
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
If I come across as shrill in support of SD's it is only because of frustration with opinions formed from no actual experience and apparently no actual knowledge of SD's. Not because I think they are the best system - I am only attempting to throw logic and experience into the mix.

And failing, apparently.

Mark
The light bulb doesn't usually illuminate until years later after the many other "adult experience prophecies" prove to have merit...

__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 10:30   #111
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,456
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

The reason I was asking about saildrives is because I was interested in that 1983 Wauquiez Gladiateur 33 with the 2008 Volvo 20hp and saildrive. I was thinking great...........I like the boat AND it has an almost new engine and saildrive (20 hours use says the Ad)

But then you do a little research and find things like this: concerning a Wauquiez Pretorien 35 from the Mahina Website

Pretorien 35 * FRANCE Strong, fast & attractive, built by Wauquiez. Great value. Modest tankage, some have saildrives, a negative
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 10:34   #112
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Yes, he has his opinion. Until very recently, he ignored catamarans completely. Now he recommends certain catamarans, and most of them have saildrives! He also bases his view of "offshore" as Souther Ocean, Antarctica and Patagonia. If you plan to sail there, I am also in favor of shaft drives, as well as monohulls and certain other design considerations.

What would you do if a boat that interests you was not even on his list of suitable offshore boats?

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 10:48   #113
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
For perspective on weight, a Yamaha 30hp 4-stroke weighs 370lbs. Our Volvo 30hp diesel weighs 309-340lbs (depends on transmission choice). Our engines are also not located on the extreme aft of the boat.

You did mean to compare similar sized engines, didn't you? It seems silly to argue a 5hp outboard against a 30hp diesel.

Another poster was correct on outboard over-rev limiters. I was surprised when I found out our new outboard had it, and have seen/heard it work in practice. It works well.

Outboards are not the only engine/trans type to cavitate. That is dependent on drivetrain placement. I have been on a few Lagoons with the saildrive located aft of the rudder in the extreme end that cavitate and over-rev when motoring into chop and waves.

Regarding corrosion - a previous thread on this saw the SD sage with the single treasured Bukh (!!) example go on about how saildrives fizz away the moment they touch water. At the time, I pointed out that I was in a boatyard with about 100 saildrives and none of them showed any signs of corrosion at all.

Currently, I am in a boatyard with 32 drivetrains. 14 of them are saildrives - 4 of them over 20yrs old, none of them less than 8yrs old. None of the saildrives show any sign of corrosion, or any problems at all. Of the shaft drives, 4 of them have problems. One has a very bent shaft, two have shafts so corroded as to needing replacement, and the other has both its shaft and transmission laying underneath it. The shaft looks OK to me, so I don't know why it is out - perhaps it has a slight bend that isn't noticeable by simple sight. I also do not know what is wrong with the transmission.

Unlike others, I don't draw any concrete conclusions from these examples either way.

I find it curious as to how this thread on saildrives gravitated to catamarans. One poster pointed out that a boat who punched a pinnacle with his saildrive had to go a long way to haul out compared to another with a shaft drive who could haul quickly - seemingly without understanding that the situation was the type of boat and not the type of transmission. He also refused to believe that racing boats chose saildrives specifically because of less drag than shaft drives - seemingly believing that boats specifically bred and bought solely for racing would purposefully choose to increase drag for "weight balance" (and conveniently forgetting that the engine can be placed anywhere regardless of drive system).

When you have a treasured unexamined belief system, you must seek validation for it as often as possible. Even if it means refusing to understand that ranges of models and years of engines from one manufacturer differ so completely as to not being able to be categorized together in any way.

To be clear, I would not let a drive system keep me off a boat I wanted. I have owned cruising boats with outboards, shafts and saildrives. I do not have a preference, although I find outboards only good for smaller boats not cruising widely. However, if I came across a good deal on a boat like Jimbo's or 44CC, I would jump on it - particularly 44C's.

If I come across as shrill in support of SD's it is only because of frustration with opinions formed from no actual experience and apparently no actual knowledge of SD's. Not because I think they are the best system - I am only attempting to throw logic and experience into the mix.

And failing, apparently.

Mark
A 30hp 4 stroke Yamaha weighs 214 lbs. a 30 hp Honda 184 lbs. also both these outboards are 30hp at the shaft. Do you have 30hp at the shaft with your Volvo 30's?
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 11:26   #114
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Oops, that is my mistake - I clicked on a link for the 30hp specification and it resolves into the page for the 90hp specifications. I didn't check the HP rating on that page first.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 12:11   #115
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,456
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Yes, he has his opinion. Until very recently, he ignored catamarans completely. Now he recommends certain catamarans, and most of them have saildrives! He also bases his view of "offshore" as Souther Ocean, Antarctica and Patagonia. If you plan to sail there, I am also in favor of shaft drives, as well as monohulls and certain other design considerations.

What would you do if a boat that interests you was not even on his list of suitable offshore boats?

Mark
I saw that a so called "expert" said saildrives were a negative as did a local surveyor that I spoke to concerning an S2 with a saildrive so I thought I should check into it a bit more before buying to see where all this negativity came from. I understand though that a Wauquiez Gladiateur 33 is a pretty nice "offshore" boat.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983.../United-States
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 12:17   #116
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,945
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Mark,
Its easy for your boat to not make John's list as it does not include any of the current French production boats or German production boats...he's not a believer !!
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 13:31   #117
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,454
Images: 69
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
While bottom cleaning, I notice no more growth on the saildrives than the rest of the hull.

So your argument is perfectly maintained outboards vs. poorly maintained saildrives? :roll eyes:
I never even mentioned maintenance. unless you think that pressing the tilt button on an outboard motor is maintenance! Outboard props stay clean with no maintenance. They're not in the water.

I've just helped a friend clean the hulls on his Seawind 1250. The hulls were done in Altex no 5, the saildrives and about 1m2 around them in propspeed. professionally applied about 8 months ago. The Altex was clean, except in a few areas it had been rubbed off. The areas done in propspeed were entirely covered in small barnacles.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 13:40   #118
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,425
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I never even mentioned maintenance. unless you think that pressing the tilt button on an outboard motor is maintenance! Outboard props stay clean with no maintenance. They're not in the water.

I've just helped a friend clean the hulls on his Seawind 1250. The hulls were done in Altex no 5, the saildrives and about 1m2 around them in propspeed. professionally applied about 8 months ago. The Altex was clean, except in a few areas it had been rubbed off. The areas done in propspeed were entirely covered in small barnacles.
IMO, proper maintenance includes monthly bottom cleaning when in warm waters.
__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 13:51   #119
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,454
Images: 69
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
well… not exactly.ish. the way to do it is to apply barrier coat on the SD and then you can apply whatever bottom paint you like.

I am not finding that I can't sail in light airs. I have Gori folding props, and since I just got my new laundry, the boat is going pretty dang well in light air. I would suggest that inability for cats to sail in light airs is largely a function of sailplan and weight. How clean is the bottom overall? There are other factors than propulsion drag.

I'm not convinced that my SD and diesels are much, if any, heavier than a couple of OB, especially when one considers the installation of some sort of lowering rig/frame and fairing for the OB which would need to be substantial.

I admit being a diesel geek. Husband turned me on to diesel cars and now I'm absolutely convinced that diesel is the way to go for any combustion engine. I just love the simplicity, efficiency and durability (and the ability to run 'em on 'alternative' fuels, 'cause you know the world's end is coming nigh.)

On the subject of corrosion, I have seen less corrosion in my SD than I did on my Honda 5 on my F-27GS and that boat was trailered, and we're Nazis about flushing and care. Honestly I was surprised how fast the paint bubbled on that little OB, I guess they don't make 'em like they used to

oh… and when bringing my boat home, we crossed the GOM from Sarasota to Pensacola. During the crossing, a front passed and the wind went dead ahead. (wind and barges, they all come to Tami.) We needed to get there, so rather than tacking, we engined it directly into the 30kts/8ft short-period GOM waves. I'd be surprised if OB would have done aught but cavitate (BTW ventilation is what happens to rudders/foils when air is pulled down from the surface along their leading edges; cavitation is pressure drop at propeller edges, bubbling air right out of the water)
How light and how well do you sail? In wind under around 7-8 knots we can get pretty close to 100% true windspeed. Around 10 knots we're close to 90%.

Of course sailplan and weight enter into it. Outboards are lighter than diesels. And have zero drag from props and drive legs.

It's easy to see that outboards are lighter. Look at the specifications. The "lifting frame" you mention doesn't need to exist. Use a motor with power tilt. (The weight of which is included in the specs) My 20 hp Hondas weigh 65 kg each. I can pick them up and carry them by myself. The outboard mounts are made from very light composite materials. I doubt they'd be anywhere near as heavy as the mounting beds for diesels.

If you read my earlier post, I've already mentioned that we've motored into 40 kts, with short steep waves. Our props are not much shallower than a sail or shaft drive's would be, and well forward. We only had momentary "rev ups" due to ventilation, and made good progress - around 5 kts. (Not at full throttle) It would have been too uncomfortable to go much faster anyway.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 13:57   #120
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,454
Images: 69
Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
IMO, proper maintenance includes monthly bottom cleaning when in warm waters.
Not daily? Not everybody lives aboard. The boat I mentioned, the owners live over 1000 miles from their boat. They don't go there every month.

I live aboard, but I don't clean the boat's bottom every month. In fact I haven't cleaned it since last April, when we slipped. I've checked it, (we're sitting on the bottom right now) it's clean.
__________________

__________________
44'cruisingcat is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Feature Requests bdbcat OpenCPN 2491 Yesterday 22:33
Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions Rich_Maler General Sailing Forum 94 11-12-2012 20:09
Lipari 41: Sail Drives and Props Cotemar Fountaine Pajot 4 09-10-2012 03:29
Pennant at top or bottom ? macbeth Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 23 06-06-2012 19:05
Z Drives for Sailing Yachts - Love em' or Leave 'em . . . Gone2long Propellers & Drive Systems 0 26-07-2011 06:07



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:21.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.