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Old 05-01-2014, 16:47   #76
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

SMJ,

What I have been curious to know in regards OB is, if you wanted to do trips beyond something like a coastal cruise, wouldn't the amount of fuel you'd have to carry be fairly substantial, as compared to diesel, even with a 4-stroke OB?

The other concerns I'd have: comparative flammability of gasoline; OB reliability (yes, one can easily just swap out an OB but I'm not into conspicuous consumption).
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Old 05-01-2014, 16:54   #77
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

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As I said, outboards arent the answer for ALL cats but there are quite a few large cats doing quite well with them. You obviously have no experiance with these.
The experience I had with outboards on the <35 footers is all I needed. Thank you very much.

Why make a bad experience X2 or X3 or X4. You have to buy the big tubes of Preparation H to go out on those Outboard Cats in heavy weather.
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Old 05-01-2014, 16:59   #78
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

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The experience I had with outboards on the <35 footers is all I needed. Thank you very much.

Why make a bad experience X2 or X3 or X4. You have to buy the big tubes of Preparation H to go out on those Outboard Cats in heavy weather.

And once again you have experience in outboard cats in heavy weather? Didn't think so. Maybe better to judge something you have experience in. In heavy weather a good outboard cat would be sailing not motoring. When you say heavy weather you do mean with wind involved right? Hopefully 44c will jump in here with a little bit of his experiances.
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Old 05-01-2014, 18:29   #79
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SMJ,

What I have been curious to know in regards OB is, if you wanted to do trips beyond something like a coastal cruise, wouldn't the amount of fuel you'd have to carry be fairly substantial, as compared to diesel, even with a 4-stroke OB?

The other concerns I'd have: comparative flammability of gasoline; OB reliability (yes, one can easily just swap out an OB but I'm not into conspicuous consumption).
From our experiences having owned 4 outboard powered cats is no matter the size of engine/engines, when doing mid to upper 6's you will burn approx. one gallon an hour. When doing upper 4's to 5 kts about a half a gallon an hour. Considering the weight savings and less dag of the outboards hopefully your light wind performance will be considerably bette and you will have to motor less. This had held true with a single Honda 50, a single Honda 40 and twin Yamaha 9.9's.
I would guess that 99% of all boats in the world today are outboard powered yet it's extremely rare to hear of a loss from explosion. If installed in the correct manner it's very safe.
The worst thing for an outboard is to sit idle because the gas will deteriorate. This is most of the outboard problems. We would run our outboards up to operating temperature at least once a week and try to buy non ethanol gas. We also used an additive. My friend that designed and built a lot of the charter cats seen in the Fl. Keys would usually replace the outboards at 3-4000 hours. They still had plenty of life left in them but he considered this a prudent thing to do. I just inquired about a Catana 42 catamaran for sale that has Volvos with 3000 hours on them and they need replacing, just the luck of the draw.
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Old 05-01-2014, 18:42   #80
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Not all cat sailing is wonderful and fast in heavy weather.

My Edel 35 cat was outboard powered and I had it coupled to the steering so I had relatively good low speed maneuverability. Still try backing out of a slip when it's blowing or motoring into the chop in a cut or pass when wind and tide won't cooperate. King of cavitation (technically ventilation I think)

The other big drawback to outboards is lack of charging capacity ... 8 amps won't cut it for anything but the shortest of cruises or the smallest of batteries.

Also note that with diesels you can also make hot water for a deserved hot shower after a cold dive to clear a trap line from the prop...hmmm

For cruising cats that, at least once in a while, go offshore, opt for the twin diesels and dodge the crab pot buoys.
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Old 05-01-2014, 18:44   #81
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

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On what planet would this be a good idea? These Yamaha 9.9 will get stuffed in a 6 foot wave.

If your going from A to B in heavy weather you will be standing still or blown back to A.

In heavy weather the pucker factor goes exponential with outboards.
Whilst outboards are not for me personally it certainly seems that they work well on some designs. 44C's outboard powered 44ft Oram (full time liveaboard and offshore proven vessel) for one would run rings around a mahle36 in all conditions.

I don't believe you can be quite so adamant about this. I have had a Seawind 1000 perform well in heavy weather conditions under power.
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Old 05-01-2014, 18:48   #82
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

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Outboards are the best at cavitation and popping out of the water just when you need them the most.
Hold on there young fella. These new outboards have overrev governors on them. My 5Hp 4 Stroke Mercury 25" Extra Long Shaft Outboard works fine pushing my 6600lb Bristol " starter boat" around, but when the waves are up around 6-7', the motor will come out of the water.

In those conditions, I run it at half throttle or less so when it does pop out it doesn't rev extremely high before the governor kicks in. I also keep the sails up and if there is a little breeze, I can usually adjust so the engine doesn't pop out of the water.

Check video of a nice day. One month later in about the same area the waves were so large and the wind had dropped so much that the motor was coming out from the boat's rolling.

Coming in on autopilot after a long night at a rough anchorage near Kiptopeke................



I'm thinking the outboards are in a better environment when the boat isn't being used also. See attached.
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Old 05-01-2014, 18:49   #83
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Not all cat sailing is wonderful and fast in heavy weather.

My Edel 35 cat was outboard powered and I had it coupled to the steering so I had relatively good low speed maneuverability. Still try backing out of a slip when it's blowing or motoring into the chop in a cut or pass when wind and tide won't cooperate. King of cavitation (technically ventilation I think)

The other big drawback to outboards is lack of charging capacity ... 8 amps won't cut it for anything but the shortest of cruises or the smallest of batteries.

Also note that with diesels you can also make hot water for a deserved hot shower after a cold dive to clear a trap line from the prop...hmmm

For cruising cats that, at least once in a while, go offshore, opt for the twin diesels and dodge the crab pot buoys.
Your absolutely right, The Edel 35's outboard was positioned to far aft so did cavitate quite a bit. We owned an Edel 43 with saildrives, hence my dislike for the saildrive.
With the cost of solar nowadays and the acreage of space on a catamaran one should never have to resort to running the engine to charge the batteries. Also why run the diesel for hot water when a propane on demand water heater won't glaze your motors cylinders.
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Old 05-01-2014, 18:53   #84
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Whilst outboards are not for me personally it certainly seems that they work well on some designs. 44C's outboard powered 44ft Oram (full time liveaboard and offshore proven vessel) for one would run rings around a mahle36 in all conditions.

I don't believe you can be quite so adamant about this. I have had a Seawind 1000 perform well in heavy weather conditions under power.
Thank you Downunder. My point is and has been that outboards on cats can be a viable alternative if the boat and outboard installation is correctly done. There's no doubt that some cats would gain nothing from an outboard installation therefore they have diesels.
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Old 05-01-2014, 18:55   #85
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

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Whilst outboards are not for me personally it certainly seems that they work well on some designs. 44C's outboard powered 44ft Oram (full time liveaboard and offshore proven vessel) for one would run rings around a mahle36 in all conditions.
Yes, outboards do work well for a few designs. What do you do to charge the batteries on a long trip with outboards and how do you make hot water.

If the props start cavitating in heavy weather do you just sit and drift until the wave calm down?

I like a boat to have all the amenities of home like power, hot water.
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Old 05-01-2014, 19:02   #86
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Yes, outboards do work well for a few designs. What do you do to charge the batteries on a long trip with outboards and how do you make hot water.

If the props start cavitating in heavy weather do you just sit and drift until the wave calm down?

I like a boat to have all the amenities of home like power, hot water.
That's great, you want YOUR boat to have all the comforts of home. But does that make it wrong for someone to want there boat to be different. The batteries and hot water has been discussed, and no not all outboards cavitate relentlessly in heavy weather. I never said that ALL cats should have outboards yet it seems you feel ALL cats should have diesels.
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Old 05-01-2014, 19:16   #87
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

Quote:
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Yes, outboards do work well for a few designs. What do you do to charge the batteries on a long trip with outboards and how do you make hot water.

If the props start cavitating in heavy weather do you just sit and drift until the wave calm down?

I like a boat to have all the amenities of home like power, hot water.
Batteries without doubt can be managed with sufficient solar with Honda genset backup which can also run your watermaker. Most 40ft cats can be set up with 750w to 1kw solar. Hot water can be similarly sorted and isn't such a big issue in the tropics. In USA it would be as is internal heating at present. There are outboard powered cats that do not suffer with amenities.

Much of the issues with outboard cavitation occurred in the earlier designs. With more forward mounting and long shafts and clever designed mounting protection they perform well on some modern designs and certainly have an edge sailing with props out of the water.
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Old 05-01-2014, 19:43   #88
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

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Much of the issues with outboard cavitation occurred in the earlier designs. With more forward mounting and long shafts and clever designed mounting protection they perform well on some modern designs and certainly have an edge sailing with props out of the water.
You surely cannot beat sailing with the outboards tilted out of the water.
That is sailing at its best. Not strut or prop resistance at all.
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Old 05-01-2014, 21:05   #89
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

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On what planet would this be a good idea? These Yamaha 9.9 will get stuffed in a 6 foot wave.

If your going from A to B in heavy weather you will be standing still or blown back to A.

In heavy weather the pucker factor goes exponential with outboards.
Better to stick to posting about subjects you know something about.

In heavy weather we sail. Ever thought of doing that? However we have motored into 40 knots, (with a fairly big, but not fully developed sea state) just for the exercise. It wasn't a problem. But when we were at sea and had several days of 35-45 knots, we sailed. Some boats can do that.

Power : solar, with Honda genny as backup. We can make bread and water off just the solar panels, when it's sunny.

Gas hot water. We don't need to run our engines to get hot water, or to charge batteries.

Changing gearcase oil is easy. Can do it in our out of the water. Last time:



No stuffing around with funny antifouls that supposedly don't corrode aluminium. And don't work. No barnacle encrusted props. Ever. How good do you motor in heavy weather with an inch of barnacles on your props?

Fishing line round the prop? Tilt it up and remove it. Keep going on the other engine or sails. No need to stop.
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Old 05-01-2014, 21:27   #90
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Re: Sail Drives..Like em?

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Coming in on autopilot after a long night at a rough anchorage near Kiptopeke................
Wow, is your outboard as loud as it appears in the video?
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