Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

[Wulf]

Originally Posted by Rumlater

?..Marvel Mystery Oil...

Snake oil won't help this.

[model 10]

Originally Posted by Rumlater

Hey Guy, why so pessimistic, with no oil for cooling the metal expands causing it to seized, cool it down add oil and see if it turns over, if it is scored and compression is low you do what NSBoatman said, change the sleeves, check the bearing connecting rods and valve push rods and have at it. machinery is pretty resilient.

I guess you guys missed post #53?

[Arthur Garfield]

Barring anything breaking in interior of engine,the 2 biggest problems going forward,will be the heat and Why engine ran without oil.
Heat will damage seal that usually show up over time.Included in seals are the injector pump seals.
As to the "why" it ran empty of oil- A low pressure shut-off switch should be installed to prevent this happening in future.
A cylinder deglaze and nerl,plus Crank,piston rod,camshaft,bearings and a ring and seal kit would give me confidence to sleep while out sailing.


All the best

[andyft]

I had a similar thing happen to my 4108 oil pressure sending unit cracked after 28 years and it blew oil luckily I glanced at OP gauge while it was happening, saved the engine Whew!

[nimblemotors]

Sorry to hear such a minor little thing completely toasted your engine.
Diesel engines are very reliable, they last forever, until one of a dozen things goes wrong, then they are quickly a lump of useless iron.
The bad news is it overheated and will have metal everywhere, so will be very costly to rebuild as most parts will need replaced and/or remachined.

Time to find something to replace it.

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by Guy

I guess you guys missed post #53?

Yup.... It's overhaul time.

[bretto55]

G'day mate,
It's a Perkins. Super tough. Did it seize? If you can turn it over, just fill her up.

[gts1544]

May I take a moment to remind everyone of the TROUBLESHOOTER'S MANTRA:
Start with the SIMPLE / QUICK / CHEAP progressing slowly to the COMPLEX / TIME CONSUMING / EXPENSIVE! You will be amazed at how often the first 3 principles of the mantra will solve the problem.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by gts1544

May I take a moment to remind everyone of the TROUBLESHOOTER'S MANTRA:
Start with the SIMPLE / QUICK / CHEAP progressing slowly to the COMPLEX / TIME CONSUMING / EXPENSIVE! You will be amazed at how often the first 3 principles of the mantra will solve the problem.

Ha, when thinking thru the possibities I usually go the other way round...then I feel so much better when I discover that's not the case! ;-)

Given that the OP has posted that his engine is siezed, its highly likely that simple/quick/cheap just got eliminated.

[s/v Jedi]

I'm sure Marvel's Mystery Oil will fix it up just fine. May be a small burr left will buff right out!

Edit: this was sarcastic...

[SkiprJohn]

Originally Posted by asumpton

She is siezed up tight Can't rotate the shaft with a breaker bar.

Thanks everyone for your help and excellent advice.

Is there a "how to rebuild a 4-108" thread on here?! Or a rebuild manual specific to the Perkins? I have some pretty complete shop guides, but I need some directed guidance on what to look for and replace.

Fwiw the oil pressure line actually broke at the compression fitting- guess the vibration fatigued it. I installed it about 5 years ago.

Sorry to read that!

Are you intent on rebuilding or are you going to try to squirt some brake fluid or mystery oil or something in the cylinders, let it soak and try to rotate it again? Just checking to see what your thoughts are just now.

There are quite a few of the old 4-107 or 4-108s around so you might be able to find one as a replacement.

[Scout 30]

Keep an eye on ebay & craigslist. Here's a couple of motors I found on a quick search of ebay. The cheap one's probably a parts motor.


Sailboat Rebuilt 3 Cylinder Perkins Diesel w Transmission | eBay


Perkins 4 108 Marine Diesel | eBay

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by asumpton

She is siezed up tight Can't rotate the shaft with a breaker bar.

Thanks everyone for your help and excellent advice.

Is there a "how to rebuild a 4-108" thread on here?! Or a rebuild manual specific to the Perkins? I have some pretty complete shop guides, but I need some directed guidance on what to look for and replace.

Fwiw the oil pressure line actually broke at the compression fitting- guess the vibration fatigued it. I installed it about 5 years ago.

Unfortunate that you're on the bad side of 50/50. As previously noted though, the engine is sleeved, and a crank can be ground, so all is not lost.

The first thing to ask is how up to the task are you? Nothing derogatory intended, and there's nothing inordinately difficult about tearing down and reassembling an engine, but if you've not done it before, there's a lot of opportunity for mistakes. But it can be lots of (dare I say it) fun.

A copy of a 4108 service manual is available here:

http://www.wyc.ca/pdf/information/ta...INS_MANUAL.pdf

Before you do anything read and reread it.

Also keep in mind that, even though the engine is 'locked up' or 'seized'
you can't know why until you get inside it (based on your description, I'd go with a stuck piston{s}). It could be something very minor, it could be something severe, so it might be prudent to partially disassemble it before pulling it from the boat, because, depending on your financial situation, you might be able or want to repair only what you have to to get it running.

And that brings up another point; the 4108 is a good, reliable, very popular engine with relatively inexpensive parts available from a large variety of sources, but it is somewhat dated and one has to ask the question 'Even if
I do all the labor and buy a kit (like this one; Perkins® 4 108 Overhaul Kit with Valve Train POK411 Maxiforce | eBay ) for 500+ dollars, after all is said n done, did it make more sense to repower? It's a long way from a cut and dried decision, personally I prefer the old non-electronic engines by a very large margin....

[DeepFrz]

$516. is super deal. Of course then there is the crank and what damage may have been done to the camshaft and then there is the possibility of damage to the HP pump, gears in the timing system, oil pump...

[Dockhead]

Don't be intimidated by the job. I rebuilt my first engine when I was 12 years old, successfully. If I have mediocre mechanical skills now, I certainly had almost none then. It was a Triumph Spitfire with a thrown rod, which my father bought for $50 and gave to me on the condition that I get it running again. It took a couple of weekends.

The hardest part will be getting the engine out.

Here's a taste of what you have in store:

Mike Slinn / Sailing

Parts will cost you $800 to $1500, and you'll have a machine shop bill for a few hundred bucks for grinding the crank, planing flat the head, doing the valves, and fitting the sleeves. I would recommend having the machine shop -- a good diesel engine shop -- assemble the block and head for you -- you'll pay a couple hundred bucks more, but you'll be sure that it's done right.


When you're done, the motor will be good for another 20,000 hours or so. Provided you fit an oil pressure alarm, of course.

Things to pay attention to:

* have the block and head checked carefully for flatness and machined flat if necessary
* replace the cylinder head studs and nuts (and don't forget to retorque the head after the first 15 - 20 hours of use)
* replace the oil pump
* make sure the flywheel is flat -- check with micrometer. If not, it can be machined
* crankshaft should be magnafluxed to ensure no cracks
* camshaft may be toast -- cam lobes are sensitive to lube problems. Ditto the lifters. Check.
* don't get the big end caps mixed up -- if they (and the rods) are not stamped with cylinder number, label them carefully as you take them off. They are not interchangeable.
* check the ring gear. now is the time to replace it if there's any wear
* might as well replace the fresh water pump while the engine is out
* clean out the heat exchanger
* check if there is anything which can be done about the oil leaks. maybe someone has come up with some method to deal with it
* send the injection pump and injectors off for bench testing -- this is the time for overhaul or replacement if they're not perfect


As to repowering -- I can't imagine any scenario where it makes any sense to repower a boat with a 4-108. There's no way you can repower for less than three or four times the cost of a thorough rebuild, and other than the oil leaks, a better diesel boat engine than the 4-108 has never been made.

My father's boat, built in 1982, had a broken engine hours clock on it when he bought it in 1994 or 95 -- stuck at 10,000 hours or so. God knows how many hours were on the Westerbeke marinized Perkins 4-108. He cruised almost full time from then until he finally sold the boat this year -- about 20 years. He must have put on another 10,000 or 15,000 hours at least. He never did anything to that engine but change the diapers in the bilge to soak up the leaking oil, and change the oil and filters religiously. I don't think he even ever adjusted the valves. Try that with a modern Yanmar or Volvo.