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Old 25-05-2015, 02:57   #76
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

If the sea gods are on your side the big end bearings may just have tightened up. Refill, run a short time then replace the filter and oil again in case there are metal fragments in the sump. Good luck and repair your alarms.
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Old 25-05-2015, 07:02   #77
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

Anyone have a ball park on a cost to rebuild a 4108 if you have a shop do it?
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Old 25-05-2015, 07:03   #78
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

Did you remove the injectors when you tried to turn the crank?

Maybe squirt some oil in, let it soak for a while, and then try to turn the engine?

Sounds like you really will have to overhaul. Dockhead is right. These are dirt cheap to rebuild compared to other brands, though I think the machine shop work prices will be higher than mentioned.

To do the job right there are some special tools required that will have to be added into the cost. Maybe rent an engine stand? You don't want to do this on the floor. And maybe some of the modern sealants will cure the oil leaks. See? Maybe better than new.

Good luck!
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Old 25-05-2015, 09:09   #79
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

[QUOTE=Dockhead;1832993]

As to repowering -- I can't imagine any scenario where it makes any sense to repower a boat with a 4-108. There's no way you can repower for less than three or four times the cost of a thorough rebuild, and other than the oil leaks, a better diesel boat engine than the 4-108 has never been made.

QUOTE]

I would rebuild the existing engine if it were me, too, but it is far from a given that this is the route for everyone.

To rebuild the engine as you describe would cost at minimum 5000 US.

Here is a brand new 54 hp Yanmar with gear for 14700. (Though I wouldn't put a Yanmar in anything I owned...)

Yanmar 54HP 4 CYL WITH SHAFT DRIVE 2014 STA For Sale - 1001469 | Boats for Sale on Boat Deck

and an almost new Beta (Kubota) for 13000.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...el-144184.html

And that is after a 30 second search effort.

The main problem besides initial new engine cost (in my eyes) is the engineering effort to install a completely new engine; mounts, bed modifications, exhaust, wiring, running gear etc.

And, as noted before, I am rather averse to electronics on engines...

Some of the up sides are: most likely better fuel economy, better resale value, increased power to weight ratio, and a ready made high temp, low oil pressure shutdown system (or at least it's availability if not standard).

For some (misinformed) people new is just better (after all, peace of mind is based on perception, not reality), though I don't think Asumpton is in that category...

So, to hire someone to remove, rebuild and replace a 50 hp marine diesel, I don't think many people would argue that 7500-8500 is an unreasonable estimate. Which is why I don't think it would be such a simple decision for a lot of people...

Asumpton, depending on your desire and finances, you can do as little or as much of the work as you want, key to success are patience, meticulous
attention to detail, cleanliness and planning.

If money is tight, make sure the internal engine and transmission parts are good first, the external parts (providing they were working well before) like the injectors, injection pump, water pump and electrics can all be serviced as needed later.

Based on the engine size, I assume you have an around 40' boat, so you should have reasonable engine access. I suggested earlier to pull the head before pulling the engine for 3 reasons, it will probably give you an idea of what caused the engine to seize (aiding with planning), it will reduce the engine weight substantially, probably to about 350-400 lbs, versus almost 600, and it will reduce the actual size of the engine, making it easier to pull from typically rather restricted engine compartments.

And finally, though I too prefer manual gauges, for oil pressure I learned from 2 similar experiences (though I caught both before any damage was done, the alarm worked in one case and I got sprayed with hot oil while driving in the other) to use electric gauges, with steel or stainless steel fittings rather than brass. Though even the electric sending units can fail, I replaced the oil sending unit on my Jeep last year, it was leaking about a quart every five miles...
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Old 25-05-2015, 10:24   #80
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

re: rebuild. You are going to need a new crank or yours ground and bearings to match. Don't buy your rebuild kit until it is apart and the Crank journals have been measured etc.
Good luck. If the rest of the engine was in good shape may be worth it rather than repowering.
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Old 25-05-2015, 10:56   #81
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

heavydutykits@oweux.com I think you have gotten some good advice on rebuild. A quick search brought this up. I was amazed at the price on a rebuild kit if you can do it yourself. The advice on checking the journals was great. Even is they didn't have ridges it may be worth having them turned check for
them being elliptical. Someone mentioned clean, if you take it on make like a surgeon.
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Old 25-05-2015, 11:35   #82
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

A lot has to do with load. If the engine was wide open, very likely bad. If the engine was just a little over idle, it may have seized from overheating and expansion (engines can do that with oil in them), and with little throttle, simply stalled. I had that happen to a similar diesel on a gen set with little damage.

I would certainly change the oil a second time within an hour or less, to get rid of any bits. After that I would be watching her very closely.

But the "lost power" statement bugs me. Sounds like it was powered up.
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Old 26-05-2015, 05:39   #83
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

[QUOTE=jimbunyard;1833193]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

As to repowering -- I can't imagine any scenario where it makes any sense to repower a boat with a 4-108. There's no way you can repower for less than three or four times the cost of a thorough rebuild, and other than the oil leaks, a better diesel boat engine than the 4-108 has never been made.

QUOTE]

I would rebuild the existing engine if it were me, too, but it is far from a given that this is the route for everyone.

To rebuild the engine as you describe would cost at minimum 5000 US.

Here is a brand new 54 hp Yanmar with gear for 14700. (Though I wouldn't put a Yanmar in anything I owned...)

Yanmar 54HP 4 CYL WITH SHAFT DRIVE 2014 STA For Sale - 1001469 | Boats for Sale on Boat Deck

and an almost new Beta (Kubota) for 13000.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...el-144184.html

And that is after a 30 second search effort.

The main problem besides initial new engine cost (in my eyes) is the engineering effort to install a completely new engine; mounts, bed modifications, exhaust, wiring, running gear etc.

And, as noted before, I am rather averse to electronics on engines...

Some of the up sides are: most likely better fuel economy, better resale value, increased power to weight ratio, and a ready made high temp, low oil pressure shutdown system (or at least it's availability if not standard).

For some (misinformed) people new is just better (after all, peace of mind is based on perception, not reality), though I don't think Asumpton is in that category...

So, to hire someone to remove, rebuild and replace a 50 hp marine diesel, I don't think many people would argue that 7500-8500 is an unreasonable estimate. Which is why I don't think it would be such a simple decision for a lot of people...

Asumpton, depending on your desire and finances, you can do as little or as much of the work as you want, key to success are patience, meticulous
attention to detail, cleanliness and planning.

If money is tight, make sure the internal engine and transmission parts are good first, the external parts (providing they were working well before) like the injectors, injection pump, water pump and electrics can all be serviced as needed later.

Based on the engine size, I assume you have an around 40' boat, so you should have reasonable engine access. I suggested earlier to pull the head before pulling the engine for 3 reasons, it will probably give you an idea of what caused the engine to seize (aiding with planning), it will reduce the engine weight substantially, probably to about 350-400 lbs, versus almost 600, and it will reduce the actual size of the engine, making it easier to pull from typically rather restricted engine compartments.

And finally, though I too prefer manual gauges, for oil pressure I learned from 2 similar experiences (though I caught both before any damage was done, the alarm worked in one case and I got sprayed with hot oil while driving in the other) to use electric gauges, with steel or stainless steel fittings rather than brass. Though even the electric sending units can fail, I replaced the oil sending unit on my Jeep last year, it was leaking about a quart every five miles...
All valuable information, but I would hasten to call attention to the figures:

If a used engine of different type costs $13,000, then how much will it cost after new beds, motor mounts, all new wiring, adapting or replacing exhaust, etc., etc., etc., etc.? At the end of the day, it's going to be more than 3x and possibly more than 4x the cost of rebuilding, even if that's $5000 as JimBunyard says.

But the rest of the post is right on, and I should not have been so flippant about the rebuild vs. repower question. Of course, there are a few different factors which need to be thought about seriously.

If my Yanmar 4JH3HTE bit the dust (God forbid), I would think seriously about repowering, for all the reasons JimBunyard points out. It's a good engine, performs well, and is admirably light and compact for its 100 hp, but it's quite complex (turbo, intercooler), and it's not designed for unlimited, continuous use like the 4-108 is, and has a number of drawbacks including smoking like a chimney. I would think hard about a new Beta or even a new Yanmar, versus rebuilding.

In the OP's situation, I doubt that he will find much good reason to repower. Although certainly he should think about it and be sure before he makes a decision.
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Old 26-05-2015, 18:48   #84
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSY Man View Post
Hmm, okay?
Soo, some poor slob runs his Diesel engine out of lube oil until it quits and there is no damage and not a matter of money to put it right?

Not sure what planet you are from but you think those observations could easily be from somebody fearful and uninformed?
The comment was no doubt generated less by what you said than by how you said it. I had the same reaction. You sound like a blowhard, but I can't argue with the points.
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Old 26-05-2015, 19:20   #85
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric22 View Post
The comment was no doubt generated less by what you said than by how you said it. I had the same reaction. You sound like a blowhard, but I can't argue with the points.
Political correctness is killing us; CSY Man was saying what needed top be said instead of telling him it'll be just fine.

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Old 26-05-2015, 19:29   #86
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

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Originally Posted by asumpton View Post
Hi I need some advice- today the oil pressure gauge line fell off and the oil all dumped into the pan. The alarm is nonfunctional and I didn't notice until the engine- a Perkins 4-108 lost power and quit. From losing power to quitting was probably about 45 seconds.

Have I destroyed the engine?

To test can I simply replace the oil and see if she cranks up, or should I do something more?

Thank you for your help
Perkins are tough. You might like to fill her with oil and then try turning her over on the crank.

If she doesnt turn, you'll need leverage, then she's toast. If she does then try starting.

Look for oil pressure coming up quick. If you see oil pressure spike regularly or she sounds odd then shes toast.

If she runs you should have the old oil analysed. This will confirm if you have suffered pemanent damage.

I always recommend an oil light (sender) with a gauge (switch). Both not either.

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Old 26-05-2015, 19:31   #87
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

Quote:
The comment was no doubt generated less by what you said than by how you said it. I had the same reaction. You sound like a blowhard, but I can't argue with the points.




Quote:
. A blowhard is someone who always brags or boasts about himself. If you get stuck sitting next to your blowhard cousin at the family holiday dinner, you may wish he didn't think he was quite so amazing.
Me blowhard?

Show me where I have been bragging about myself?
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Old 27-05-2015, 07:55   #88
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Perkins are tough. You might like to fill her with oil and then try turning her over on the crank.

If she doesnt turn, you'll need leverage, then she's toast. If she does then try starting.

Look for oil pressure coming up quick. If you see oil pressure spike regularly or she sounds odd then shes toast.

If she runs you should have the old oil analysed. This will confirm if you have suffered pemanent damage.

I always recommend an oil light (sender) with a gauge (switch). Both not either.

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I think you missed 53? He is locked up.
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Old 27-05-2015, 11:55   #89
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

Sent you a PM.

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Old 27-05-2015, 14:54   #90
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Re: Ran engine w no oil- is it destroyed?

A 4108 is a great engine, and I would add oil and see if it will start. Oil pressure may be lower from bearing wear and the rings and sleeves took some wear. You could have a mechanic take a compression test. It will always be suspect.
If it were mine, I would put in a new engine kit. About $700 if you are a mechanic.
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