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Old 19-09-2013, 09:23   #121
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

We have two Racor filters running in parallel with 10 micron filters. If one plugs up (vacuum gauge), we simply switch the lever so the fuel runs through the second one. This allows us to change the clogged one while continuing on. Luckily we have large inspection plates on the fuel tanks and cleaning the tanks is simple. The hard part is waiting until we are low enough on fuel so we don't have to pump it all out beforehand!
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Old 19-09-2013, 09:51   #122
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

The best thing a boat owner can do is use the boat.. the more the better.

The return (To tank) rate on most diesels is very helpful in keeping the fuel clean.
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Old 21-09-2013, 23:12   #123
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

delfin, your suggestions are all excellent. should clarify that I will start out with 2 clean tanks. Will have a polishing system to cycle the fuel through this system.
Will have the normal fuel supply run through the dual 500's, to a day tank that I will need yo add. From the day tank I am thinking to have a way to supply the engine and the Generator separately and at the same time. Why because I believe my Polishing system should be run by the AC POWER driven motor and pump available from Grainger. The small Racor polishing system with the FPM - 050 and one 500 filter, might best be used to run continuously in the day tank.
I have learned a lot from you all. If you ever had the misfortune to buy fuel from a 50 gallon drum, full of condensate, you will become really serious about clean diesel reaching your engine. Also many Sailors only discover they have dirty fuel tanks when the get caught out in bad weather when the wave action causes the crud in the tanks to become active, quickly clog the filters and the engine to die usually when needed most. We all know MURPHY'S LAWS. Captain O' TOOLE said Murphy was an optimist. Fair Winds and clean Diesel. Thank you for the lessons learned here.
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Old 22-09-2013, 00:39   #124
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Obviously we all have different opinions on this subject and at least we can all agree to differ. One of the themes that comes up continually is that tanks with sumps are leak prone, if fitted correctly I can't agree.. Another thing that pops up all the time is that tanks fitted by the manufacturer can't be removed. The simple solution for this is to careen the boat against the dock and remove any condensation/ water/ sediment with a vacuum pump through one of the tank accesses, for example the fuel gauge. I've done this with both sailing boats and motor cruisers and for a little effort it's very effective.
Our family business stores and distributes fuel and chemicals in commercial quantities and one of the anomalies of Bio-diesel fuel is that it will, if the storage(fuel tank) tank is not cleaned regularly, over time, begin to remove some sedimentary matter from storage tanks, ie begin to self clean the tank and first time users may (depending on the cleanliness of the storage(fuel) tank) may experience one or two more fuel filter changes than usual, this passes as the system is cleared.
Commercially we only polish recycled chemicals and never diesel fuel.
Some-one posted that drawing fuel from a high turnover point is preferential, in a low turnover supply, the fuel has time to settle out any sediment/water. In a high turnover this will be in suspension, or agitated (never fill when the tanker is delivering).
I think this thread well aired by now and having given you the facts I'll leave you guys to argue the pro's and con's as you see fit.
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Old 22-09-2013, 09:13   #125
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

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Originally Posted by Jeff Millar View Post
delfin, your suggestions are all excellent. should clarify that I will start out with 2 clean tanks. Will have a polishing system to cycle the fuel through this system.
Will have the normal fuel supply run through the dual 500's, to a day tank that I will need yo add. From the day tank I am thinking to have a way to supply the engine and the Generator separately and at the same time. Why because I believe my Polishing system should be run by the AC POWER driven motor and pump available from Grainger. The small Racor polishing system with the FPM - 050 and one 500 filter, might best be used to run continuously in the day tank.
I have learned a lot from you all. If you ever had the misfortune to buy fuel from a 50 gallon drum, full of condensate, you will become really serious about clean diesel reaching your engine. Also many Sailors only discover they have dirty fuel tanks when the get caught out in bad weather when the wave action causes the crud in the tanks to become active, quickly clog the filters and the engine to die usually when needed most. We all know MURPHY'S LAWS. Captain O' TOOLE said Murphy was an optimist. Fair Winds and clean Diesel. Thank you for the lessons learned here.
If you end up with a day tank, that solves a lot of problems associated with dirty fuel. Perhaps size that for the fuel burn of the engine over 24 hours - no larger. The 120 vac motor and carbonator pump combination described on Delfin's website works really well. Quiet, can be sized to the flow of the filter housing and can run continuously as long as you like. One other comment is that if you are going to have a 900 series filter for polishing, run it at 30 microns, which keeps the fuel at refinery specs, and were it me, I would put the dual Racors downstream from the day tank, not on the supply side as you seem to indicate. The fuel return to the day tank will continuously filter that to the 2 - 5 micron rating of the OEM filter. If both genset and engine draw from the day tank, you'll know you're delivering clean fuel to both in isolation or run together.

Finally, if you run your polishing when the vessel in powering in a bit of a slop and with the tanks pretty low, you'll capture any crud that has settled out in calmer conditions. One good session for a couple of hours will get you very clean fuel. The FPM is pointless in your installation, IMO.
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Old 23-09-2013, 06:57   #126
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Delfin, unfortunately i bought the FPM before i discovered the excellent information posted on this site. I suerly am for over kill when it comes to water and clean fuel supply to my engine and Gen. set. You all have convinced me that one of the important considerations that i am presently missing is the day tank. Which i will certainly now add. I would like to see a one line drawing of your fuel system and the day tank included. Would really appreciate the drawing also showing the physical assembly. I will certainly also be using the Grainger recommended pump with the AC driven motor. And yes it is a given that i will start out with clean tanks ( 2 ) around 400 gallons. What have i missed ?
Happy to exchange emails if this makes exchange of info. easier. Thanks.
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Old 23-09-2013, 09:13   #127
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

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Originally Posted by Jeff Millar View Post
Delfin, unfortunately i bought the FPM before i discovered the excellent information posted on this site. I suerly am for over kill when it comes to water and clean fuel supply to my engine and Gen. set. You all have convinced me that one of the important considerations that i am presently missing is the day tank. Which i will certainly now add. I would like to see a one line drawing of your fuel system and the day tank included. Would really appreciate the drawing also showing the physical assembly. I will certainly also be using the Grainger recommended pump with the AC driven motor. And yes it is a given that i will start out with clean tanks ( 2 ) around 400 gallons. What have i missed ?
Happy to exchange emails if this makes exchange of info. easier. Thanks.
Here's an updated drawing of our system. I replaced the 24v pump with another 120 vac carbonator pump because the 24v was noisy, and couldn't run more than 30 minutes without overheating. It was rated continuous duty, but wasn't. A Walbro may have worked fine, but these ac units are flawless, IMO. The relay system is separately described on my website, and is probably overkill for most people, but it allows me to turn on polishing for any period of time, then off for any period of time. I use it to constantly top up the day tank while underway, or polish for 10 hours, then turn itself off. I polish at 30 microns and transfer fuel to the day and boiler tank at 10 microns, then have 2 micron filters on the engines before the fuel hits the OEM filter. This is probably all belt and suspenders, then sewing your pants onto yourself, but I never have to worry about clean fuel. Delfin's fuel capacity is 2400 gallons, so it is a little different management issue than most would have.
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Old 23-09-2013, 21:34   #128
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
...........

As for the return providing filtration, most return is minimal - it would take many, many, many hours to turn over a single tank load for even a small tank. Also, many boats do not run their diesels all that often or for very long times. Quite simply, unless you are a commercial fisherman, thinking of the diesel return as any type of "polishing" is wishful at best.

Mark
It would not be a wise idea to have a filter on the return line like what hydraulic systems have. Any amount of back pressure on the injectors would compromise performance. What's going back in the tank is already filtered.
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Old 24-09-2013, 01:19   #129
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Delfin, Final check of my two systems, fuel polishing and normal fuel supply to the day tank.
Fuel polishing System. These items are connected in series in the order shown. ( 1 ) De - Bug L100, ( is this worth $465 ? )
( 2 ) Racor 900's three of them in series, first one with added Racor Priming Pump Kit ( is this required, with the Granger Pump and Motor )
( 3 ) the Granger Pump and Motor ( #

Normal Fuel line Supply to Day TANK. After the Day Tank a Racor Dual 500 and a Racor 500 are connected in parallel, fuel is pulled through these filters by a second Grainger Pump and Motor. Supply then goes to the Engine and the Generator, one ot the other or both can be selected. Return lines go to the Day Tank.
Please review and your experienced comments most welcome.
Question: is the Racor Prim Pump Kit for the 900 not required as the Granger Pump will pull the fuel through these 3 filters ( all 900's )
Question : In the Normal Fuel Flow Line to the Day Tank is a SMALL Racor Filter Water Seperator with Prim Pump ( 30 GPH Flow ) after the Grainger Pump and Motor, last filter before the engine , 2 or 5 micron , not needed or ok.

Thank you.
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Old 24-09-2013, 08:00   #130
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
It would not be a wise idea to have a filter on the return line like what hydraulic systems have. Any amount of back pressure on the injectors would compromise performance. What's going back in the tank is already filtered.
I wasn't talking about a filter on the return line. I was addressing the belief that the act of simply running an engine is a good form of fuel polishing because much of the fuel is returned to the tank after going through the primary and secondary engine filters.

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Old 24-09-2013, 08:20   #131
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

My return line on the Perkins 4-108 does not go back to the tank, but rather returns to the outlet of the secondary filter(the engine mounted filter). Does this seem right? Maybe it's the filter inlet.
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Old 24-09-2013, 08:42   #132
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

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My return line on the Perkins 4-108 does not go back to the tank, but rather returns to the outlet of the secondary filter(the engine mounted filter). Does this seem right? Maybe it's the filter inlet.
NO that would not be correct, it would pressurize the injector leak oil lines.

Perhaps you are mistaken; The return line returns fuel from two sources:
1/ the injector leak oil, which cools the injectors.
2/ the fuel pressure regulator in the engine mounted fuel filter that bleeds off excess pressure from the mechanical fuel pump.

The two are usually connected at the engine mounted filter and then run back to the top of the tank.

The output of the engine mounted filter is connected directly to the injection pump.
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Old 24-09-2013, 09:08   #133
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

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Originally Posted by Jeff Millar View Post
Delfin, Final check of my two systems, fuel polishing and normal fuel supply to the day tank.
Fuel polishing System. These items are connected in series in the order shown. ( 1 ) De - Bug L100, ( is this worth $465 ? )
( 2 ) Racor 900's three of them in series, first one with added Racor Priming Pump Kit ( is this required, with the Granger Pump and Motor )
( 3 ) the Granger Pump and Motor ( #

Normal Fuel line Supply to Day TANK. After the Day Tank a Racor Dual 500 and a Racor 500 are connected in parallel, fuel is pulled through these filters by a second Grainger Pump and Motor. Supply then goes to the Engine and the Generator, one ot the other or both can be selected. Return lines go to the Day Tank.
Please review and your experienced comments most welcome.
Question: is the Racor Prim Pump Kit for the 900 not required as the Granger Pump will pull the fuel through these 3 filters ( all 900's )
Question : In the Normal Fuel Flow Line to the Day Tank is a SMALL Racor Filter Water Seperator with Prim Pump ( 30 GPH Flow ) after the Grainger Pump and Motor, last filter before the engine , 2 or 5 micron , not needed or ok.

Thank you.
The motor you need is this one: MARATHON MOTORS Motor, 1/4 HP, Carbonate - Carbonator Pump Motors - 5XB85|5KH36KNB633X - Grainger Industrial Supply, and the pump head is this one: PROCON Pump, Rotary Vane, Brass - Rotary Vane Pump Heads - 6XE83|111A100F11AA 250 - Grainger Industrial Supply. Some will advise you not to mix diesel with brass, and if you're concerned about that the more expensive stainless steel bodied pump PROCON Pump, Rotary Vane, SS - Rotary Vane Pump Heads - 6XE88|113A100F31BA 250 - Grainger Industrial Supply can be used.

I'm having a bit of trouble visualizing your proposed system, but here is what I think you have in mind, and if correct, my comments are the best I can offer:

You have a single tank and you'll be circulating fuel through that tank with the carbonator pump. If this is correct, on the outlet side of the carbonator pump put a three way valve to divert the fuel either to the day tank for filling or back to the main tank for polishing. I say 'the' filter because adding more 900 filters in series is a waste of time. The point of polishing is to pass the fuel many times through a single filter, catch the crud and replace the filter. If the tanks are clean, the filter will last a long time. If you use one filter, make it a 10 micron so the fuel hitting the day tank is filtered to that level. I wouldn't bother with the De-bug unit. I have them because I had good success with them helping to clean a dirty tank in my sailboat. If you start seeing black body crud in the 900 bowl, you can add it later if you like. You don't need the priming pump because of the carbonator pump. IMO, no one needs a priming pump since you can fill the filter housing with fuel before putting the lid on. At least I seem to be able to....

After that, forget another carbonator pump as the position you suggest will do far more harm than good. The fuel lift pumps on the motors will draw what you need, pulling the fuel through the dual Racor 500's and the secondary filter on the motors, main or genset. If you want to put a Racor 500 on the genset, you can, or you can just tee off the outlet side of the dual Racor to provide supply to the genset. Your choice. With my setup, I have never accumulated enough crud in the genset Racor to warrant changing the filter, so I change it for drill only. The return fuel line can be plumbed back to the day tank.

So, if I understand you, it sounds to me like you are adding filters on filters for no benefit. The single 900 on the polishing loop and the dual Racor 500's downstream from the daytank are all you need. Put the extra filters housings on eBay.
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Old 24-09-2013, 10:37   #134
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

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Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
My return line on the Perkins 4-108 does not go back to the tank, but rather returns to the outlet of the secondary filter(the engine mounted filter). Does this seem right? Maybe it's the filter inlet.
If it's a self-bleeding filter the return line will go to the filter multi-tip banjo fitting, which exits to the tank.
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Old 26-09-2013, 00:50   #135
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Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

I want to run the fuel polishing system and run the engine and also generator at the same time, if i want.I have two main fuel tanks now and will add a day tank.
I will be able to polish one main tank, or the other main tank or both main tanks at the same time.
When i first visited this forum I had no idea how to do this or really what I wanted to do. Bottom line was i wanted clean diesel ( water free ) reaching my Perkins 4236.
Now i know how to accomplish this and seal the fitting connections to ensure no leaks. Thank you all for your collective support.
Fair Winds
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