Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-09-2013, 19:45   #106
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 1,390
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Millar View Post
Excellent forum and great information. Would appreciate experienced review of the following Diesel Fuel Water Separation system that I am considering installing.
I have the Perkins 4236 ( 84 hp ) and would appreciate your review and comments for the following installation :
1- Between my diesel tank would be first the ALGAE - X Fuel Conditioner.
2- Next in line a WALBORO 60 GPH 12V Fuel Pump
3- Next Griffin dual 900 ( G900DM - MA ) 10 micron ( same as the Racor 900 only more $$$)
The Racor 900 can have an intergral priming pump built in ( extra $$$ )
4- Next the Racor Dual 500 ( 10 micron )
5- Next the Racor Spin on Series 230R, comes with built in priming pump ( 2 micron )

Does my system look ok ?

Question : FIRST IN LINE FILTER, better to use the more expensive Racor 900 available with the built in Priming Pump and be able to bleed all the filters between this filter and the engine.
The Griffin filters are a much lower price. But the Racor 900 with the ability to add the built in Priming Pump seems like a very attrictive option.
What say you experienced Cruisers.

Thank you.
You'll get different opinions on Algae-X. I use them because they cleaned up a very dirty tank on a prior vessel. But I have no clue if they perform as advertised, so I'm agnostic.

I've never used a priming pump and frankly don't understand their application. Probably missing something, but the first step to changing filters is to drain out diesel through the bottom of the filter housing into a container. Remove filter, refill with the diesel, screw on the top. I do essentially the same thing with the OEM filters on the engine and haven't had to prime anything for, oh, about 25 years.

The pump is in the wrong place, if I understand your setup. These filters want the diesel pulled through them, not pushed. So the pump should be between the engine and the primary filters.

I'm not sure what the Racor 500 dual is for. If you pull the fuel through a 10 micron (for your engine a 500 is sufficient, and that matches to gph of the Walbro), then it gets picked up by the engine pump and is filtered through the OEM filter you should be just fine. Since you're not polishing, just filtering, a single pass through a 10 micron should be all you need before you hit the engine filter(s).

On Delfin, because we have a day tank, the fuel is polished to 10 microns before it hits that tank, and it then passes through a 2 micron setup before it gets to the OEM filters. I change filters for drill only, as they are never dirty enough to warrant the change.

Hope that helps.
__________________

__________________
http://delfin.talkspot.com
When stupidity is a sufficient explanation, there is no need to appeal to another cause.
- Ulmann's Razor
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2013, 19:55   #107
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,388
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
The pump is in the wrong place, if I understand your setup. These filters want the diesel pulled through them, not pushed. So the pump should be between the engine and the primary filters.
Good catch. I missed that one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
I'm not sure what the Racor 500 dual is for. If you pull the fuel through a 10 micron (for your engine a 500 is sufficient, and that matches to gph of the Walbro), then it gets picked up by the engine pump and is filtered through the OEM filter you should be just fine. Since you're not polishing, just filtering, a single pass through a 10 micron should be all you need before you hit the engine filter(s).
Not sure about the OPs plan but I have dual Racors so when one clogs at an inopportune moment I just turn a lever and have a clean, primed filter online.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2013, 20:38   #108
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 1,390
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post




Not sure about the OPs plan but I have dual Racors so when one clogs at an inopportune moment I just turn a lever and have a clean, primed filter online.
What I meant was that if you have the 900, you don't need the dual 500. If I already had the dual 500, I'd use that for the reason you mentioned. The 500 is sized for 60 gph.
__________________
http://delfin.talkspot.com
When stupidity is a sufficient explanation, there is no need to appeal to another cause.
- Ulmann's Razor
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2013, 04:57   #109
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish rambler View Post
This old chestnut of fuel filters keeps on coming up and many people just can't see the wood for the trees. Many fit very expensive fuel polishing/filtration systems and it's simply more onboard systems to go wrong.
First and foremost clean out your fuel tanks and fit a sump drain tap at the bottom. Many are difficult to access but if a man put it in, a man can take it out again. Diesel engines when running return unused filtered fuel back to the tank via the return line and in effect they are constantly filtering the fuel so costly polishing systems are just a complete waste of your hard earned money.
I highly recommend fitting a non return valve at the tank outlet, a Caterpillar primary fuel/water separator, change the old Perkins sandwich type CAV fuel filter to a 'spin on' canister type, fit a button pump on the engine fuel filter intake line. In operation. Drain the fuel tank sump valve weekly, this will remove any water/condensation, diesel bug can't grow as there's no moisture interface for it to grow on, plus any sediment will drain off. If you follow my advice you will NEVER have blocked filters or diesel bug and it's possible to change filters without bleeding the system with a little practical experience and common sense. The 'spin on filter head conversion and button pump can be purchased cheaply from ASAP supplies.com and you can get filters practically the world over from any plant/machinery/tractor dealer.
Does it work ? yes, I cruised from Ireland with single Perkins 4236, crossed the Irish sea in a Force 6/7 and down to the Med on the same set of filters.
What more proof do you need.
I hope this helps to see the practical, proven way to set up your simple efficient fuel system. K.I.S.S and your money in your pocket, not some fancy sales guy on commission.

let me drive a "coach and four" through that post.

(1) most modern boats have tanks that are not suitable for bottom drain stopcocks.

(2) its a leak prone area under diesel pressure and is actually forbidden by things like CE regs, ( diesel in bilges then pumped overboard etc)

(3) unless you have a well defined sump, its useless.

(4) Fuel polishing is very useful feature if you can afford it , as it removes dirt , foreign objects and other comtaniments , not just water.

(5) even with a draw off stock cock, crud still sticks to the bottom and sides and in heavy seas gets remixed . a draw off does not help

(6) a good system is a large capacity racor as the first (primary) filter , sized at 20 microns, the spin on racors are much more expensive and harder to get. the t handle type is the best . easiest to change, ignore fitting the vacucm gauge , i used to fit them , they never read right on small engines . dump the CAV , great for tractors , rubbish for top fed boat engines

(7) the secondary fuel filter should then be 5 micron nominal, 2 micron is quite frankly a waste of time, your engine is quite happy with <5 micron particles. do not fit restrictive filters(< 10 micron) on the suction side of fuel lift pumps

(8) rig a polishing system if you have the cash , it always helps. even better switch to the day tank idea

(9)a bleed pump is a nice to have, even nicer is a self bleeding diesel , change the filters and just turn the key, had a lovely styer engine that did that

I've sailed from ireland to the canaries in an f9 , on one set of filters, so what, I've taken on diesel i Africa that no amount of bottom draining would sort , short of dumping the whole lot , good filtering is just that , good

dave

ps the primary filter is always the first to meet the flow .
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2013, 06:25   #110
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,388
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
What I meant was that if you have the 900, you don't need the dual 500. If I already had the dual 500, I'd use that for the reason you mentioned. The 500 is sized for 60 gph.
Sorry I misunderstood. Considering your obvious experience I was surprised to think you didn't understand a dual Racor system. Instead it was just my lack of basic comprehensive skills.

So yes, having two primary filters in the system, the dual Racors and the 900 I also think is serious overkill.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2013, 06:35   #111
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish rambler View Post
This old chestnut of fuel filters keeps on coming up and many people just can't see the wood for the trees. Many fit very expensive fuel polishing/filtration systems and it's simply more onboard systems to go wrong.
.

Cleaning the tank periodically and fitting a sump drain is good advice, (although on many boats these simple jobs are not easy or even possible.)

Fuel problems on yachts are rising dramatically (perhaps due to the increasing biofuel content?). It is becoming very common on yachts traveling areas where the fuel storage practices are poor. Lack of previous problems is not a guarantee of future success.

The fuel returned from a typical diesel engine is a tiny fraction of the the amount of fuel filtered by polishing system. The two mechanisms cannot be compared. Even my small polishing system filters about 3,000 litres of fuel a week.

Most fuel polishing systems installed on yachts are DIY efforts so there is little commercial push for these products. The costs are low.

Reducing the chances of developing a diesel bug involves a multifaceted approach. Fuel polishing is only is only one element. There are many other steps, some you have already mentioned. Others I think are even more important such a obtaining fuel from a high volume reputable source, inspecting the fuel for water and clarity before putting it into your tanks.

I am surprised by such vehement opposition to one of the steps. Try it, if nothing else it will reduce the need to periodically clean the tank and that is worth the small cost alone in my estimation.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2013, 08:23   #112
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

I installed my Prima 50 in 1994 using the CAV accumulator and water separator that was delivered with the engine. The CAV unit has no filter element - just uses gravity to participate out particulate and water on the suction side of the fuel system. Next in line on the suction side of the fuel system is a fine mesh screen in the mechanical lift pump body - then a very large screw on secondary filter (Perkins part) on the pressure side before the injection pump - also has a drain in the bottom of the element.

I was not comfortable with this arrangement and thought that I should install a RACOR filter/water separator on the suction side so I contacted the Perkins dealer (Detroit Diesel at that time) - they said the CAV was adequate.

I had a pretty dirty tank at that time (alga) and cleaned it best I could before installing the new engine. After running a while I checked CAV bowl and removed maybe three tablespoons of crap. Further upstream at the lift pump was a small l amount of visible sediment trapped by the fine mesh screen.

I decided to stay only with the CAV on the suction side and have not been sorry - I think that a RACOR secondary filter introduces unnecessary complexity and would be more likely to cause a problem than prevent a problem - here is my reasoning.

1) the CAV will collect a large amount of sediment without clogging - probably over a cup

2) the CAV offers no resistance on the suction side of the fuel system so it does not tax the lift pump

3) I have never found a significant amount of sediment in the lift pump body - the CAV must be pretty efficient even tough it does not have an element with a micron rating

4) there is no filter element to change - or vacuum gauge needed because there is no resistance -

I have heard of too many instances of boats being disabled when the primary filter gets clogged when rough weather stirs up crap in the bottom of the tank. I look forward to these shakeups because it helps scrub out the remnants of the alga bloom - which I then drain from the CAV

I make it a point to drain the CAV after re-fueling (run about 5 hours then check) to make sure that I haven't picked up a load of dirty fuel.

I know that this approach is counter to much of what the experts recomment but it has worked for me for almost 20 years. I believe that it provides simple reliability (KISS)

comments???

Carmine
S/V TOPAZ,
1975 Downeaster 38 with 1994 Perkins Prima 50
__________________
cmpizza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2013, 08:57   #113
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 1,390
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmpizza View Post
I installed my Prima 50 in 1994 using the CAV accumulator and water separator that was delivered with the engine. The CAV unit has no filter element - just uses gravity to participate out particulate and water on the suction side of the fuel system. Next in line on the suction side of the fuel system is a fine mesh screen in the mechanical lift pump body - then a very large screw on secondary filter (Perkins part) on the pressure side before the injection pump - also has a drain in the bottom of the element.

I was not comfortable with this arrangement and thought that I should install a RACOR filter/water separator on the suction side so I contacted the Perkins dealer (Detroit Diesel at that time) - they said the CAV was adequate.

I had a pretty dirty tank at that time (alga) and cleaned it best I could before installing the new engine. After running a while I checked CAV bowl and removed maybe three tablespoons of crap. Further upstream at the lift pump was a small l amount of visible sediment trapped by the fine mesh screen.

I decided to stay only with the CAV on the suction side and have not been sorry - I think that a RACOR secondary filter introduces unnecessary complexity and would be more likely to cause a problem than prevent a problem - here is my reasoning.

1) the CAV will collect a large amount of sediment without clogging - probably over a cup

2) the CAV offers no resistance on the suction side of the fuel system so it does not tax the lift pump

3) I have never found a significant amount of sediment in the lift pump body - the CAV must be pretty efficient even tough it does not have an element with a micron rating

4) there is no filter element to change - or vacuum gauge needed because there is no resistance -

I have heard of too many instances of boats being disabled when the primary filter gets clogged when rough weather stirs up crap in the bottom of the tank. I look forward to these shakeups because it helps scrub out the remnants of the alga bloom - which I then drain from the CAV

I make it a point to drain the CAV after re-fueling (run about 5 hours then check) to make sure that I haven't picked up a load of dirty fuel.

I know that this approach is counter to much of what the experts recomment but it has worked for me for almost 20 years. I believe that it provides simple reliability (KISS)

comments???

Carmine
S/V TOPAZ,
1975 Downeaster 38 with 1994 Perkins Prima 50
Everything works until it doesn't. If you have bacterial mats growing in your tank, depending on how much moisture is available they can get really big really fast. The point of a primary filter is to give you a visual inspection point that traps crud before it reaches your secondary filtration on the engine. Sounds like you've never had any problems yet, so maybe not to worry, although you're probably not dead yet but still might see the point of life insurance.
__________________
http://delfin.talkspot.com
When stupidity is a sufficient explanation, there is no need to appeal to another cause.
- Ulmann's Razor
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2013, 09:11   #114
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmpizza View Post

comments???
Welcome to the forum.

The main problem is sounds like your tank is still dirty. This should be cleaned again.

With only very rudimentary primary filtration you are relying on the engines secondary filter to prevent most of the debris from damaging your engine.

To quote Nigel Calder "it is vitally important to be absolutely fanatical about keeping the fuel clean"

You have some way to go before the term "fanatical" applies
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2013, 18:54   #115
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
(7) the secondary fuel filter should then be 5 micron nominal, 2 micron is quite frankly a waste of time, your engine is quite happy with <5 micron particles.
Mostly, this is out of one's hands since the filter manufacturer provides whatever. I have never seen a choice of micron sizes in a spin-on secondary. Many engine manufacturers won't even tell you what micron size their secondary is. But almost all of them are 2-5um.

Irish Rambler, I think you will find that many tank installations prevent the addition of a sump and drain. Also, this is highly problematic with plastic or composite tanks. Not to mention that it is forbidden on new constructions.

So the whole idea is a non-starter for many boats.

As for the return providing filtration, most return is minimal - it would take many, many, many hours to turn over a single tank load for even a small tank. Also, many boats do not run their diesels all that often or for very long times. Quite simply, unless you are a commercial fisherman, thinking of the diesel return as any type of "polishing" is wishful at best.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2013, 00:05   #116
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Thank you for your support. I had on order the Algae - X FPE Fuel Polishing Kit and have cancelled it.
Looks my Polishing System would be better assembled using 3 Racor 900 water separator filters in series, using 30, 20 and 10 micron bilters. Thery are rated at 180 GPH and I would need a 12 volt Pump to pull the fuel through these fifters.
My Question is which Pump is best for this System ? 2 Walboro 60 GPH in Parallel or your experienced support and guideance please.
__________________
Jeff Millar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2013, 00:49   #117
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

3 filters just for the polishing won't do any harm, but seems way overkill. The polishing system is not a critical system, if a polishing filter clogs at an inconvenient time it is not going to stop the engine, or endanger the boat. The 900 filters will hold a lot of junk and a single 10 micron filter should be all that you need.

For the main engine duel filters in parrallel (2x10 micron) are a nice extra. If one starts to clog you can immediately switch over without stopping the engine.
Some also fit 2 primary filters in series for the main engine (30 and 10). This takes longer to clog than a single filter and provides slightly better filtration.

An alternative to the filters in series is a much larger single 10 micron filter ( which you have using the large 900 filters) is almost as good and less hassle.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2013, 03:26   #118
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

noelex 77

Good points. I will have the dual filters Racor 500's in the main fuel line.
Will put one of the 900's ahead of the dual 500's.
What micron filter to use in 900, 20 micron and 10 micron in the 500's.

In the fuel polishing system what pump size to use. What about the Jabsco light duty vane pump, pulls 8 amps at 12 volts. What would be the best size pump to use after the 2 900's ?
__________________
Jeff Millar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2013, 06:09   #119
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

My own fuel polishing system uses a small pump. It came with the boat as a spare fuel transfer pump so I don't know the brand.
It draws 0.9A is very quiet. It only pumps about 40L an hour, but is usually on all day.

I purchased a replacment Walbro FRC-6 as a spare (I will remove the mesh filter). This is a bigger pump, but some rough tests show it much noisier and from memory consumed about 2.5A. I think the net effect will be same I will just run it shorter time. I suspect my old pump was better.

Even a much bigger pump I don't think has much impact stirring up the tank, but a rough passage is ideal for this


For my polishing system I started off with 30 micron, but changed as fuel got cleaner to 10micron. I am now thinking of giving a finer filter a try.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2013, 09:07   #120
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 1,390
Re: Primary Diesel Filter/Water Separator Recommendation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Millar View Post
Thank you for your support. I had on order the Algae - X FPE Fuel Polishing Kit and have cancelled it.
Looks my Polishing System would be better assembled using 3 Racor 900 water separator filters in series, using 30, 20 and 10 micron bilters. Thery are rated at 180 GPH and I would need a 12 volt Pump to pull the fuel through these fifters.
My Question is which Pump is best for this System ? 2 Walboro 60 GPH in Parallel or your experienced support and guideance please.
Are you intending to polish, that is, return the fuel to the tank that has been filtered, or are you just talking about filtering the fuel on the way to the engine? If the former, then you only need one filter, and 10 microns is fine once your tank is cleaned. 3 is a waste. The fuel comes from the refinery filtered to 30 microns, so polishing at 10 will improve on that. If the latter, you can pass the fuel through a 30 micron filter and don't need a pump at all - the engine pump will draw it fine until the filter gets clogged.
__________________

__________________
http://delfin.talkspot.com
When stupidity is a sufficient explanation, there is no need to appeal to another cause.
- Ulmann's Razor
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diesel

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hybrid Propulsion - I Just Don't Get it twistedtree Engines and Propulsion Systems 38 19-06-2013 13:33
Diesel Fuel Tank " Sludge " Journey41 Construction, Maintenance & Refit 50 16-12-2012 08:42
Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel In Training Engines and Propulsion Systems 37 26-11-2011 05:40
Go Primary / Go Up One Primary GordMay Marine Electronics 14 02-08-2011 13:50
Do Not Use Biocide Journeyman Engines and Propulsion Systems 37 24-07-2011 19:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:41.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.