Predatory Volvo Parts Pricing

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Silly extreme? It is no more absurd than the concept of predatory pricing. And, if you missed what in literary circles is called irony/sarcasm, I'm sorry. So, when you say above that a business uses "manipulative practices to extract profits," your statement is an admission that you know nothing about free market capitalism. Then, when you remark that you would be "ashamed to be a CEO of such an entity" you must realize that no successful corporation would ever hire you as a CEO with that mentality. Perhaps a job in government as a civil servant, but certainly no successful corporation. People either believe in free market capitalism or they do not. There is no middle ground. For the students of History among us they know that were it not for the Robber Barons in the USA(Rockefeller, Carnagie, Dupont, Ford, Kennedy, etc.), there would have been no American Industrial Revolution or the American Superpower that was created during and after WWI. On the contrary, the demise of the Soviet Empire with Gorbachev and the growth of China today is a direct result of the failed principles of Marxism and the strength of free market capitalism. You can't have your cake and eat it too . . . unless, of course, you're a magician. Good luck and good sailing.

Did you ever actually work for a corporation or have you just been smoking the s%%t they've been feeding you. No CEO I ever worked for believed in free markets. They wanted to own the market and would do just about anything to gain a competitive advantage and almost none of it had to do with building a better widget and out competing his competition on the basis of quality or price. They manipulated laws via lobbying of public officials and huge campaign contributions (used to be called bribes and had to be done under the table) and would do just anything they could think of to keep a potential competitor from entering the market. Not one of them ever wanted a free market, unless it was one they were trying to break into then only long enough for them to establish control. After that, they never wanted to see a free market again. CEO's hate free markets, they love monopolies.
"Free markets" means they want to be able to rob you without getting arrested, not that they want concepts like supply and demand to apply. If a big company is unsuccessful at preventing a competitor from entering the market, they usually simply buy them out. Occasionally, they will incorporate some of their technology into the existing product line, but most of the time it's simply to prevent loss of market share and to perpetuate the monopoly as best they can.

[FlyingCloud1937]

I couldn't agree more!!!!

People trot out the TROLL word, when someone else's views don't align with there's.

I have been labeled a TROLL on this forum. In my attempts to bring reality to the topics.

I just say oh well.

Some people are just blinded by what they believe is true, without desire to find what is really true.

If you are to label a fellow poster as a TROLL, then make sure you are able to look at the Topic from both sides.

Remember, a good debater can make an convincing argument for both sides. That doesn't make his/her side true.

Debate when postured from good debaters brings into crystal clear focus the real issues.

Lloyd

Originally Posted by rognvald

Scout,
I would hardly be classified as a "troll" by any reasonable person on this Forum(almost 1100 posts) but I also don't think I would be a contender for the Cruisers Popularity Award. However, this is not the point. It has never been my goal to attack people on this Forum but rather to present ideas/concepts that are either unknown, contrary or not expressed. . . some of which are controversial. Some people become defensive when challenged . . . especially when they are insecure about their positions and statements. I'm sorry if you felt berated but that's a personal confidence issue that you must resolve when dealing with those of opposing viewpoints. If you want to participate in a Forum among intelligent and knowledgeable respondents, you must be prepared, at times, to have your positions challenged. This is not an attack or a beratement but rather the process of communication and intelligent discussion. So, no apologies are needed on either end and we can both move forward hereon. So, if you're ever anchored next to me in a quiet secluded cove, I can assure you I won't offer you a cocktail and will probably move my boat . . . but that's not about you . . . it's about me(did I see a smile there?). Remember the famous words of the great English Bulldog Winston Churchill--"Whenever two people think the same about everthing . . . only one person is thinking." Good luck, good sailing. Capt. Rognvald--falsely accused of attacks, beratement and irreconcilable trollmanship

[sandy stone]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Did you ever actually work for a corporation or have you just been smoking the s%%t they've been feeding you. No CEO I ever worked for believed in free markets. They wanted to own the market and would do just about anything to gain a competitive advantage and almost none of it had to do with building a better widget and out competing his competition on the basis of quality or price. They manipulated laws via lobbying of public officials and huge campaign contributions (used to be called bribes and had to be done under the table) and would do just anything they could think of to keep a potential competitor from entering the market. Not one of them ever wanted a free market, unless it was one they were trying to break into then only long enough for them to establish control. After that, they never wanted to see a free market again. CEO's hate free markets, they love monopolies.
"Free markets" means they want to be able to rob you without getting arrested, not that they want concepts like supply and demand to apply. If a big company is unsuccessful at preventing a competitor from entering the market, they usually simply buy them out. Occasionally, they will incorporate some of their technology into the existing product line, but most of the time it's simply to prevent loss of market share and to perpetuate the monopoly as best they can.

I believe you nailed it. I would add that "free market" also means the company can do whatever it likes without regard to the environment, providing benefits to employees, paying taxes, or anything else resembling social responsibility. And yes, corporations should practice social responsibility because the Supreme Court ruled they are people, and we all have to work together, right?

[Mirage Gecko]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

I'm not familiar with your engine, but are you really certain that the OEM filter is actually a Fram? Have you scratched off the paint, and found it to be painted orange underneath? :-)

Many assume that if a cross reference can be found, the filters are "identical". Not necessarily the case, the media can be quite different, one brand might lack an anti-drainback valve, for instance...

But I think the point some others are making, it's not hard to poke around a bit and find better deals that might make buying a Fram from Walmart to be false economy... For example, I've been using Fleetguard full-flow filters (OEM for Cummins), in concert with an Amsoil Bypass filter. Rare to see my filter priced below $10-12, but the last batch I ordered was from a vendor on eBay who sells them for $1.50 each. The hitch, of course, is the $10 markup for shipping... But their shipping cost for 'Each additional item' is only $0.50, so when purchasing half a dozen or so at a time, I'm getting a filter of much better quality than your Fram from Walmart, for a rough equivalent in total cost...

I also enjoy Internet shopping but spent far too many years in China in an Automotive manufacturing environment spending too much time trying to sort the original from the fake to be comfortable with that type of deal.They are very good copiers and quite often the product is as good but.....
How do you really know you actually have Fleetguard at that price.
At one time I saw a big scam in China where people were buying real chicken eggs some how getting the contents out without breaking the egg then injecting a glutinous liquid back in and reselling the eggs.Even though this was on a large scale we would not consider that worthwhile what does an egg cost?
Imagine how attractive a many thousands of units order of fake fuel or oil filters would be.
Not backing up the high margins of the parts sellers here simply sometimes the deal really is too good.
Chris

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko

I also enjoy Internet shopping but spent far too many years in China in an Automotive manufacturing environment spending too much time trying to sort the original from the fake to be comfortable with that type of deal.They are very good copiers and quite often the product is as good but.....
How do you really know you actually have Fleetguard at that price.
At one time I saw a big scam in China where people were buying real chicken eggs some how getting the contents out without breaking the egg then injecting a glutinous liquid back in and reselling the eggs.Even though this was on a large scale we would not consider that worthwhile what does an egg cost?
Imagine how attractive a many thousands of units order of fake fuel or oil filters would be.
Not backing up the high margins of the parts sellers here simply sometimes the deal really is too good.
Chris

Certainly, there is always that possibility. I'm always wary of those "If it sounds too good..." deals, for sure...

In this instance, first time I ordered from this eBay seller, I happened to have a Fleetguard filter on hand - purchased from a source I was pretty confident was selling the Real Deal - with which to make the comparison... If what that vendor is selling is indeed counterfeit, it is a VERY good copy, indeed... Everything I could see short of cutting the two open was identical, the packaging, cellophane wrapping, and so on... And some of them sat in storage for a considerable period, never showing a hint of rust, etc... But of course, I suppose I'll never know for sure... Perhaps instead of being a copy, it's a case of something like a pallet of genuine Fleetguards simply having "fallen off a truck" somewhere? :-)

On the other hand, who knows whether or not those Frams being sold in WalMart are not an even cheaper imitation of the real thing, as well?

:-))

[a64pilot]

Counterfeit aircraft parts is a BIG problem, I feel certain there are counterfeit boat parts as well. They are very good, paperwork and boxes, logos etc look very close.
If it's too good a price to be true, it may be counterfeit.
Pratt & Whitney discovered some counterfeit parts recently, the only way they picked up on it was the eagle in the logo was facing the wrong direction

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

The reason people are irritated is that this is not a free market, it's a captive market. Once you own one of these diesels you are stuck buying parts from Volvo unless you can find another source which is difficult at best.

It's not a captive market, it's a free market. You are allowed to buy parts anywhere you can find them. It's up to you to determine if the Ching Ho brand part is equivalent to the Volvo part.

Don't just get mad at Volvo, look at repair parts for other products. Home appliances, television sets, etc. Even cars. You know you will pay more at the Toyota parts counter for a part than at the auto parts store. The difference is, there's a much smaller market for marine engine parts so fewer manufacturers make replacement parts. Less competition, higher prices. That's capitalism.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

I've been using Fleetguard full-flow filters (OEM for Cummins), in concert with an Amsoil Bypass filter. Rare to see my filter priced below $10-12, but the last batch I ordered was from a vendor on eBay who sells them for $1.50 each. The hitch, of course, is the $10 markup for shipping... But their shipping cost for 'Each additional item' is only $0.50, so when purchasing half a dozen or so at a time, I'm getting a filter of much better quality than your Fram from Walmart, for a rough equivalent in total cost...

Hi Jon,

I have an Amsoil bypass filter that will eventually be installed in my boat. Any comments, suggestions or complaints?

For those that aren't familiar with them,a by pass filter is an ultrafine filter installed in parallel with the standard oil filter. Roughly 10% of the oil is diverted to the bypass filter as it flows through the system so after a relatively short time all the oil has been microfiltered. The issue is that to maintain oil pressure, full flow, etc any oil filter no matter what brand or quality, is limited in the minimum micron size it will filter. This will leave a lot of finer contaminants in the oil that will contribute significantly to engine wear hence the benefit of the ultrafine bypass filter. You can still maintain full oil flow rate and pressure but also get the ultrafine filtration of your oil.

For those interested reading a little more this is addressed in Nigel Calder's book where he says "they are worth considering as add on equipment."

[Kokanee]

I can understand that Volvo has to make a profit on their parts, but I think they are taking it a bit far. They now have a reputation of having high cost parts, which aren't supported after the engine is no longer in production. I see that as bad for the consumer as well as bad for the company in the long run.

Example - I decided to replace my old Volvo MD17 with anything but a Volvo. The MD17 a fantastic marine engine, and could have been a legend. But customers now see it as a nightmare due to parts being either not available or outrageously priced.

Is it a good business decision to forego the reputation with buyers and make a short term profit on high priced parts? I guess time will tell.

At least with the new Volvo engines it is easy to find an alternative supplier. But now there is no competitive advantage for Volvo and they are stuck with their reputation as a high priced parts merchant. Bad business decisions IMO.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Did you ever actually work for a corporation or have you just been smoking the s%%t they've been feeding you. No CEO I ever worked for believed in free markets. They wanted to own the market and would do just about anything to gain a competitive advantage and almost none of it had to do with building a better widget and out competing his competition on the basis of quality or price. They manipulated laws via lobbying of public officials and huge campaign contributions (used to be called bribes and had to be done under the table) and would do just anything they could think of to keep a potential competitor from entering the market. Not one of them ever wanted a free market, unless it was one they were trying to break into then only long enough for them to establish control. After that, they never wanted to see a free market again. CEO's hate free markets, they love monopolies.
"Free markets" means they want to be able to rob you without getting arrested, not that they want concepts like supply and demand to apply. If a big company is unsuccessful at preventing a competitor from entering the market, they usually simply buy them out. Occasionally, they will incorporate some of their technology into the existing product line, but most of the time it's simply to prevent loss of market share and to perpetuate the monopoly as best they can.

Bill,
Since the beginning of Man, there are some who achieve more economic success in life than others. This is a given. It creates levels of society based upon income that shape and control people's choices and philosophy concerning money, wealth and how it is obtained. When families over generations have been reared in ,say, Working Class and Middle Class environments, they generally purport the views expressed by their parents and the community in which they reside. This is simply a process of culturization which has lasting effects on most people's psyches. Typical of Working/Middle Class people is a general mistrust of those with wealth and the belief that no one can achieve success without being dishonest. It is a rationalization for their own inability to achieve wealth at a desired level and therefore since they cannot achieve it, those who do must be dishonest. So, when you say that free markets mean that "they(CEO's) want to be able to rob you without getting arrested," you exemplify the class conflict described above. Do you think the genius behind Microsoft's success was a result of dishonesty? What about Apple? How about Samsung? And of course one of the wealthiest corporations in the world that is "non profit"--Bosch? It is simply naïve to believe that none of their success had to do with "building a better widget" ,as the above examples clearly illustrate, and the aggressive marketing they represent within the parameters of the free market system. But, when class conflicts rear their ugly heads, they resort to the tired old mantras of the evil capitalist and the honest working man cliche. So,Bill, when you say that businesses "hate free markets" you not only reveal your class consciousness and bias but also show your lack of knowledge about how successful businesses really work. It's just not like Mom and Dad told you. Good luck, good sailing and Long Live Capitalism! Captain Rognvald

[brantleychuck]

That's good info Bill, really something to give some thought to


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kokanee

I can understand that Volvo has to make a profit on their parts, but I think they are taking it a bit far. They now have a reputation of having high cost parts, which aren't supported after the engine is no longer in production. I see that as bad for the consumer as well as bad for the company in the long run.

Example - I decided to replace my old Volvo MD17 with anything but a Volvo. The MD17 a fantastic marine engine, and could have been a legend. But customers now see it as a nightmare due to parts being either not available or outrageously priced.

Is it a good business decision to forego the reputation with buyers and make a short term profit on high priced parts? I guess time will tell.

At least with the new Volvo engines it is easy to find an alternative supplier. But now there is no competitive advantage for Volvo and they are stuck with their reputation as a high priced parts merchant. Bad business decisions IMO.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but if you substituted the word "Yanmar" (for example) for "Volvo" in the above, it would read and mean exactly the same.

Volvo doesn't have a monopoly on this point!

Mark

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Bill,
Since the beginning of Man, there are some who achieve more economic success in life than others. This is a given. It creates levels of society based upon income that shape and control people's choices and philosophy concerning money, wealth and how it is obtained. When families over generations have been reared in ,say, Working Class and Middle Class environments, they generally purport the views expressed by their parents and the community in which they reside. This is simply a process of culturization which has lasting effects on most people's psyches. Typical of Working/Middle Class people is a general mistrust of those with wealth and the belief that no one can achieve success without being dishonest. It is a rationalization for their own inability to achieve wealth at a desired level and therefore since they cannot achieve it, those who do must be dishonest. So, when you say that free markets mean that "they(CEO's) want to be able to rob you without getting arrested," you exemplify the class conflict described above. Do you think the genius behind Microsoft's success was a result of dishonesty? What about Apple? How about Samsung? And of course one of the wealthiest corporations in the world that is "non profit"--Bosch? It is simply naïve to believe that none of their success had to do with "building a better widget" ,as the above examples clearly illustrate, and the aggressive marketing they represent within the parameters of the free market system. But, when class conflicts rear their ugly heads, they resort to the tired old mantras of the evil capitalist and the honest working man cliche. So,Bill, when you say that businesses "hate free markets" you not only reveal your class consciousness and bias but also show your lack of knowledge about how successful businesses really work. It's just not like Mom and Dad told you. Good luck, good sailing and Long Live Capitalism! Captain Rognvald

Good retort but my thoughts are that both of you are on the edges of reality. Reality is that once someone like Microsoft establishes itself they will do damn near anything to protect their position. Simply check out their history on just how far they will go to hold themselves in a near monopoly.

Big business does what it has to do to grow and prosper, its just how the animal operates. The free enterprise system is a blood sport in many ways but its still the best system we have been able to develop.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Creating and maintaining a cross reference guide for boat parts would be a very big and time consuming undertaking and it would never end. There could also be some liability if someone used it to select a part and it caused damage or led to personal injury or death.

It's not something I would be willing to do for free or even for pay.

Personally, I have found the Internet provides much of this cross referencing already. It just takes a bit of effort.

I think this is a rational approach to reality.

Someone wrote: I think it would be great if this thread could get back on track & help create a database of affordable alternatives to OEM parts.

The reality is that the ONLY replacement parts YOU are interested in ARE THE ONES FOR YOUR ENGINE.

For example: Over the years, those of us with Universal engines (M25 series, M35) have developed TONS of "equivalent" replacement parts, whether from Kubota tractor engines or auto parts stores.

Asking someone else to develop a cross list is like asking someone else to do your homework for you!

Our C34 website has lists and lists of equivalent materials, which have saved our skippers tons of $$ over the years. And when it comes up in various boating forums, for owners of Ericsons and C30s and C310s and the dozens of other boats with the same engines, I send them links so they don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Ron's right: the information IS already out there.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Do you think the genius behind Microsoft's success was a result of dishonesty? What about Apple?

Both of those companies were led by people who have well-documented, and legendary, accounts of starting their companies through acts of dishonesty.

Mark