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Old 15-07-2014, 13:35   #16
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
SC,
I bet either the rings are simply stuck, or there are stuck valves or both, but if there is corrosion on the cam or crank, then when she comes back to life, she will start "making metal", this metal will likely eat out all the babbitt bearings in the engine and quite possibly do so much damage it's no longer cost effective to re-build.
I've seen it a few times, at first you congratulate yourself for saving an engine and money, then an hour or so later that deep, hollow knock starts
IF the whole engine was under water then I would agree with you. Heck with the rings rusted to the walls there is probably some damage there. Though it might not be so bad. Stuck rings for sure

Really you need a strong battery, valves properly adjusted, clean air filter, or no air filter and compression. Well and proper timing. I expect that the injectors and/or HP pump may need rebuilding. The 4-108 has sleeves so not so nasty a job on the cylinders.

I'm assuming the crank and cam had an oil film on it. If the engine / boat was under water then best rebuilt it or better yet chunk it and pop in a beta etc.

From personal experience reringing/sleeving/machining/honing is ~$1000 for the cheap rebuilt without head work or injectors. Perhaps a bit more for the Perkins. Most of the cost is in labor.
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Old 15-07-2014, 13:47   #17
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

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Brakleen is "extremely flammable" according to their website.
How can it be "extremely flammable" if there is no flash point listed on MSDS? Although it looks like it will kill you and the environment in other ways.
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Old 15-07-2014, 13:58   #18
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

There are two different formulations of brakeleen and two different MSDS sheets. US brakleen is non-flammable. EU brakleen is highly flammable, flashpoint <0F.

http://www.crcind.com/wwwcrc/msds/AB11261-3.htm
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Old 15-07-2014, 14:02   #19
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

Probably a difference in the propellant.
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Old 15-07-2014, 14:05   #20
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

With the probable rust and corrosion inside the cylinders and injector pump you are lucky it doesn't start. It would likely destroy itself quickly with corroded parts rubbing against each other and spreading the residue throughout the engine. Now add the possibility of a corroded injector pump stuck at full throttle refusing to shut down. At least pull the head and check the cylinders, the pump should be inspected too. Sorry about the drama but the excitement of runaway diesels in small spaces is to be avoided.
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Old 15-07-2014, 14:33   #21
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

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Probably a difference in the propellant.
Oddly completely different formulations
EU includes Naphtha, propan-2-ol, and acetone;
US includes Tetrachloroethylene, Petroleum Distillates, Trichloroethylene and Carbon Dioxide

I expect the difference is due to Low VOC requirements in California.
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Old 15-07-2014, 19:15   #22
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

Actually restricted from sale in CA and NJ according to the web site.

05089T -- Brakleen® Brake Parts Cleaner, 19 Wt Oz
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Old 15-07-2014, 19:25   #23
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

I tend to avoid ether based starting fluid and prefer WD-40 as a diesel 'starting assistant'
I'd do a compression test but WD40 should make any diesel run sprayed into the air intake
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Old 15-07-2014, 19:27   #24
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

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Ah, no not yet. Really need to bleed the HP side well first. You have to assume that water is still in the fuel lines, So you need to do a serious bleeding on that engine. That takes lots O time.

After doing the bleeding and checking valve clearances then there is one more test you can do.

If you have a spare head gasket, you can do the poor girls compression test.

The poor girls compression test, requires that you pull the head and put 1/3 cup of oil in each cylinder and let it sit overnight. Ideally after 8-12 hours there should be no measurable drop in the oil level. This tells you the rings are still sealing. If one or more cylinders are low or empty, then you have bad /broken rings and its time to pull the engine.

I was Bored so Pulled the Head on my Yanmar

If the oil does not leak out then have the injectors pop tested/rebuilt.

I totally agree. While it may need to be rebuilt, why rush. Make sure it's even getting fuel.

If money is an object, then I would do the above before anything else.
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Old 15-07-2014, 19:44   #25
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

1.Tick the engine over on the starer, use a strobe tac, measure the rpm.

2. Now remove the air cleaner, put a heavy 1/4 thick sheet rubber over the intake. Tic the engine over on the starter, use a strobe tac, measure the rpm.

If the rpm increases under test 2, then you have compression issues.

Make sure the battery is strong for both test, use a high amp start charger during both proceedings.

If the rpm is the same or very close to the same it's not compression issue.

Lloyd
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Old 16-07-2014, 07:28   #26
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

Neat test- but why does an engine with compression problems spin faster with the air intake plugged up when cranked?
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Old 16-07-2014, 10:38   #27
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

I didn't see this mentioned so I will add. I am not a diesel expert but this makes sense to me. If you try to start a balky motor with a good battery but the motor won't start the water lift muffler can fill up and then back up in to the motor since the hot expanding exhaust won't push the water out. The engine impeller is still pumping water throught the engine and injecting it in to the muffler. I would check with someone who knows for sure. It probably depends on the specific design of your exhaust system.

But someone suggested making sure the stop wasn't set on. Simple enough. I went to get fuel last week and the motor wouldn't start. It had started fine everytime up until then but the boat is new to me, with an older (1979) 4-108. I thought a hidden gotcha had turned up. Turns out I had not pushed back down the stop after I shut down the motor. It shuts off the fuel at the fuel pump via a mechanical wire. If you bleed the fuel lines you will see if the pump is pumping fuel at least. Major heart attack until I figured it out.

If it were me, I would pull the engine and have it rebuilt. You might have good rings and compression and all that but I would never trust the bearings and other parts until they were looked at at a minimum.
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Old 16-07-2014, 16:23   #28
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

If water got to the injectors they probably need rebuilt, water won't atomize like fuel and it'll blow the nozzles off.


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Old 16-07-2014, 17:38   #29
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Ah, no not yet. Really need to bleed the HP side well first. You have to assume that water is still in the fuel lines, So you need to do a serious bleeding on that engine. That takes lots O time.

After doing the bleeding and checking valve clearances then there is one more test you can do.

If you have a spare head gasket, you can do the poor girls compression test.

The poor girls compression test, requires that you pull the head and put 1/3 cup of oil in each cylinder and let it sit overnight. Ideally after 8-12 hours there should be no measurable drop in the oil level. This tells you the rings are still sealing. If one or more cylinders are low or empty, then you have bad /broken rings and its time to pull the engine.

I was Bored so Pulled the Head on my Yanmar

If the oil does not leak out then have the injectors pop tested/rebuilt.
Although SCs words are true I would not pull the head yet.

A diesel engine will run with compression and fuel (at the right time) so let's just ensure we have fuel and compression in the easiest way possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
1.Tick the engine over on the starer, use a strobe tac, measure the rpm.

2. Now remove the air cleaner, put a heavy 1/4 thick sheet rubber over the intake. Tic the engine over on the starter, use a strobe tac, measure the rpm.

If the rpm increases under test 2, then you have compression issues.

Make sure the battery is strong for both test, use a high amp start charger during both proceedings.

If the rpm is the same or very close to the same it's not compression issue.

Lloyd
1. Close the seacock first as you don't want the impeller to flood the engine - If it starts you can run a minute or so before the freshwater system starts to get too hot, be ready to shut down. You can also damage the impeller so running dry should be very minimized.

2. Remove the injector supply lines - maybe put surgical tubing on them and run to a capture bucket.

3. Crank until you are getting good fuel squirts out of the injector lines - evaluate captured fluid for water.

4. If no fuel flow continue but realize you may have a fuel system overhaul need.

5. The rubber mat is a decent idea. More dangerous is my method is to put the fat pad of my hand (below the thumb) over the intake. If you don't feel a "very" strong suction against your hand you have bad compression. I like to use my hand because I can "feel" the suction or lack thereof.

This evaluation is pretty easy and non-invasive and may help you make the decision on what to do. It would be useful information from the PO to find out when the engine last run and any idea of prior symptoms.

Bad compression can be valve clearance, burnt or corroded valve seats, something broken in the valve rocker/cam/lift system, bad rings, (badly) scored cylinder walls, piston failure.

Finally you evaluate your cruising needs. A repair of the engine may be possible. Injector pump, head overhaul, new rings - and you are on the slippery slope where full overhaul makes sense.
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Old 16-07-2014, 22:11   #30
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Re: Perkins diesel will not start even when using starting fluid, need your opinions!

I had the same problem with an engine that just had 198 hours. Some water came inside the engine, but it wasn't stuck..
Even with starting fluid, it didn't start, so we pulled the head and it turned out that there were rust between the valves and seats, so they weren't sealing right and compression was flowing out of the cylinders... Took the head to the shop and a couple of days later the engine was running... Try a compression test before pulling the head, and then, if necessary remove the engine...Good luck!


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