Perkins 4-154 and the Mystery Transmission

[beetle]

Originally Posted by brian and clare

Hi again,

Failure mode was as below:

Originally shift into gear and there is a slow hesitation before clunking into engagement.

Move on to really long hesistation, and having to goose throttle resulting in it clucking into gear at half power which is nerve wracking and voilent.

Then having to shift a few times to get it to work at all, and any tap of the throttle would make it fall out of gear.

Eventually shifting produced nothing. Shifted by hand without the cable taken off , and still nada. Reverse worked still though. No clanging and banging ever happened.

Ended up with absolutely no response to foreword shift.

Lets just say that tons of money is not really in the cards. If our life didnt depend on it I would put on a backward prop and use reverse instead. This will likey be a 20% interest Visa purchase paid off over the next 20 years.

This sounds like the shift lever has slipped on its attachment to the shift shaft sticking out of the transmission (and therefore the transmission is not completely shifting into forward), a failure in the forward clutch plates, the yoke that pushes the plates forward is worn/out of spec, a loose connection in the Morse cable, or the cable's attachment to the transmission shift lever has slipped. Mostly makes me think that there's not enough travel in the cable to allow the transmission to shift completely into forward (so the transmission is intermittently going into and out of forward gear, accompanied by much banging in the transmission).

My suggestion is to procure a mechanic's and parts manual for the Hurth transmission range you're likely to have, tools for removal (mostly box-end wrenches, a socket set with a breaker bar, you may need a shaft-pusher/puller to clear the hub from the prop shaft, hammer, small punch to remove key from the prop shaft keyway, a 6" ruler, and Liquid Wrench or other fastener-loosening liquid), return to the boat and verify that you're not seeing any problem with the transmission shift mechanism itself (the cable/lever); you can do this by removing the cable and lever and using a vice grips to rotate the shift lever directly and verify shift rotation/dimensions against the mechanci's manual - the manual will show you exactly where neutral should be, the rotation dimension into forward, the rotation dimension into reverse.

If the transmission refuses to shift into foward and continues to work fine in reverse then pull the transmission, pull the damper plate, locate a reputable rebuild shop that can tear down the transmission and determine a) what the failure(s) are, b) verify the other transmission elements are within tolerance, and c) recommend a repair or rebuild path forward.

A new transmission is expensive and the Hurth gears are well-built. Dissolving aluminum is a downside to using aluminum in the transmission case, usually a problem with older Hurth gears as they run hot and are located close to salt water spray where the shaft enters the hull - if the transmission case is severely dissolved then it may be replacement time. If the case is good then have the shop determine what is wrong with it and ask them to look for any other problems that may be creeping up, and then ask them to recommend what to do.

On the positive side, you will know in advance the cost of a brand new transmission. Depending upon the age of the gear, the depth of your pocket book, and how long you intend to keep the boat, if repair costs hit 60% of replacement value and you're going to keep the boat for 10 years I would replace with new.

- beetle

[beetle]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

Oh here is an important part to the discussion. From the picture Brian has given, this box looks most likely the 25M. The M being the important part. This is the Mechanical box not the hydraulic box. The hydraulic box has clutch packs, but I don't believe the mechanical one does, unless anyone can say otherwise.

Yes, I can say otherwise. Refer to this link:

TAD for ZF 25 M Marine Transmissions, ZF Marine Transmissions, ZF Marine Transmissions, ZF Hurth Transmissions

The ZF25M (= Hurth HBW250) has mechanically actuated multi-disc clutches (to quote the page). I'm looking at the mechanic's manual for it as it's included in the manual covering the Hurth HBW150V drive that I have.

The ZF25M is a huge transmission rated for a 107HP motor - how big is the engine this thing is attached to?

- beetle

[Alan Wheeler]

Thanks for all teh info Bettle. If the 25 is rated for 107hp, then it won't be a 25. The engine is I think, a Perkins 4.2?? I think! Brian will have to confirm that for us.

[S/V Antares]

Looking at the size of the shift leaver and the coupling with the "Drive Saver" it looks like a ZF 10M or ZF 12M. (HBW100 or HBW125). They were used behing the 4-107 and 4-108 Perkins. Some were used on 4-154 but only 3 /1 reduction. not 2/1.

Besides figuring out the model#, the ratio is an important part of the pudding.

[Alan Wheeler]

Sorry for speaking on behalf of Brian, but I think he can only participate while he is at his place of work.
The engine is a 4.2 series, most likely the 236. But can't remember. I thought it may have been a ZF15, but from looking at the specs, it was a guess between 15 and 25.
We figured the ratio would not be so much an issue at the mo. As long as he can get the boat moving and out of the marina it is in, he can sail her back to NZ and then sort the ratio with a new prop. At the moment, it is very difficult for him having it a few thousand miles away and no one there capable of working on it. Once it is back in NZ, he can work on it. It is the remoteness and lack of parts and expertese from locals that requires him to travel there with either a new/good second hand box, or the correct parts and knowledge to fix it.

[donradcliffe]

Failure mode described is classic Hurth--my ZF 25 started hesitating before it dropped into reverse, gradually getting less reliable (going through the Panama Canal, I told the pilot to give me plenty of warning if he wanted reverse). A friend's ZF 25 had the same problem going into forward. Both transmissions were taken to the same shop in Brisbane when we got to OZ. When they tore down my friends, they found corrosion and had to replace a few things, but they told me they couldn't find anything wrong and just reassembled mine, and it has worked perfectly ever since. I looked at the shop manual, and was glad they did it for me--lots of shims and tolerances to deal with.

The transmissions aren't that heavy because of their aluminum casings--less than 20kg.

[S/V Antares]

Alan, The input shaft jumps up in size on the ZF25. The Dimensions of the housing and mounting plate to the coupling face should give enough to identify the unit. All the dims are on the ZF site.

[brian and clare]

Hi, Its been a while and I am still working this thing out, but thanks for the input.
Thanks Alan for keeping up with this. The new Job has me pretty busy. The engine is a Perkins 4-154 which is rated at 62 HP. It is apparently an oddball model. How it got shoehorned on a 36 foor boat that weighs 13000 pounds is beyond me. Def. not the original engine.

I was convinced that it was the 25M model from the pictures, but now I am on the fence again because of what Antares said. Bummer. I never bought the used one on trademe because I was not certain about it, and now I am glad. But may just have to wait till I get there. Drat!

[Pblais]

Brian,

Check out this site. It's just down the road from me and Marcus there knows more about Perkins Engines than about anyone on the planet. If you go to the web site he has the instructions for getting the engine number. From that you can get whatever part numbers you need. He could help you figure out what transmission it would have to be or at least close. Even the girls that answer the phone know more about Perkins engines than any of us here. I think you can even do email questions. The 154 isn't that odd as it was popular in the late 1970's and 1980.

Contact Trans Atlantic Diesels

[never monday]

a 4-154 is a whopper of an engine for that boat. Could it posibly be a Westerbeke L25? can you get pictures of it?
http://westerbeke.com/originals/pdfs/L25.pdf

[brian and clare]

Hi Paul,

Funny, I just sent them an e-mail before you posted. Thanks for the tip. They have a used 25M transmission listed for 750 bucks that I may buy if I can confirm that it is the right one. The 25 model seems to be rated at 100 plus HP for "light use", and continuous use seems roughly in line with the 62 HP the Perkins is cranking out, so I dont think it is too much of a stretch to think it might still be the 25m.

The engine is is definitelty a 4-154. We have had some greasy fun together in the past. The boat was set up for bear with about 200 gallons of diesel tankage, 100 gallons of water. They had to cut some bits of a bulkhead to get that sucker in place, but the whole thing is now a real mess, and the electronics are just about gone. I had to occasionally hot wire her with jumper cables across the pacific when the key spratically stopped working and just about every instrument but the oil pressure has given up the ghost. It is a good engine though and deserves a bit of cash thrown at it for all the work it has done for us.

[S/V Elusive]

Whats wrong with a 4154?? If you need the manuals for it let me know ... I uploaded them to the endeavour owners forum and they can be downloaded from there ...
Will take a while to download.

[Alan Wheeler]

Getting the 154 to produce 60Hp would have to be a really good day with the Sun shining the birds chirping, Jupiter alighned with Mars and the guy doing the measurment having slight difficulty in reading the dial due to plenty of cold ones on hand. Real world Hp is more in the 50-55 range. Like all the Perkins engines, a real workhorse. Not pretty, but won't let you down.
Brian, I was going to ask if you wanted a volunteer to come with you and sort it out. But with your description of the workings of the boat, I think I will leave it to the younger addrenalin junkies like yourself.

[brian and clare]

Oh its really not as bad as all that! Apparently Clare was very impressed with me when I reached into the hole, makde some sparks fly and got the thing going. A very manly moment apparently! Just jumped out the big solenoid to the starter a-la Don Casey and his magnificent book. I will check that out on the endeavour site. I seem to remember there being some mention of available transmissions in there, but I left mine on the boat (doh).

Thanks,
B

[Alan Wheeler]

Just jumped out the big solenoid to the starter

I did that on a huge startermotor on a 24V system once. It almost threw me across the engine room. My arm was numb for sometime after. I used a spanner to jump across, so I was not isolated. The resulting back EMF clobered me. The lesson was knocked hard home that day.