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Old 28-03-2007, 08:51   #1
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Perkins 4.108 Starter Model Info?

Does anyone have the starter number or Perkins part number for the starter they have on a Perkins 4.108/107 engine?

The format of the starter number is something like this:

27680 (usually starts in 26, 27, etc...)

Also, does anyone have a 3/4" aluminum plate between their starter and the flywheel housing?


Wanted to change the name of the other starter thread I had going to reflect that it is now questioning about starter info, rather than diagnostics, but figured it was best to separate into two threads.
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Old 28-03-2007, 10:06   #2
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Following is from the Perkins 4-108 Service Manual:

NA000623 Starter Motor
37444693 Distance-Piece,starter motor

I can email you the whole manual if you don't have it. Shoot me a personal email to: bill at wdsg dot com

Bill
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Old 28-03-2007, 10:34   #3
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SSullivan;

I replaced my Perkins 4-108 OEM starter motor with a motor that has a planetary gear a couple years ago. It makes that Perkins spin!

The OEM starter motor is (was) a conventional direct drive type; it had the Bendix gear on the motor shaft that engages the flywheel gear teeth directly. The newer type has a smaller, high speed electric motor that is geared down through a planetary gear train before the Bendix gear engages the flywheel. This means higher torque and more "spin-per-amp" drive through. My old direct drive starter was drawing as much as 18 amps! The newer one is a bolt in, wire in direct replacement.

I can't tell you who makes it, the type, or the model. But I bought mine from Vic's DC Electric Service in Stuart, Florida (772-220-8952) Vic's D. C. Electric Service for $350. Well worth the price.

I just tried phoning Vis's but he is probably at the Dania Marine Flea Market that opens Thursday. There must be someone in your area that has a similar type starter.

I hope this may help.
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Old 28-03-2007, 10:51   #4
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I once read that Perkins once owned Massey Ferguson tractors so that they would have a outlet for their diesel engines. The starter for my old 4-236 was from a tractor.
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Old 28-03-2007, 13:07   #5
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Bill!! Thank you so much!

I just might be able to get somewhere with this number for the starter. I have located the plate locally, and the starter shop might be able to use this Perkins number.

My engine has a spot where some paint is missing that looks like where the 3/4" plate would have sat. Also, the thru-bolts on the starter do indeed have about 3/4"+ of extra thread sticking out the back end of the flywheel housing.

I think the lousy yard where I bought this boat did another shoddy repair job on this starter prior to purchase. Seems as though they just tossed the spacer plate.

Makes logical sense too, since if the bendix is 3/4" further in, there might be times when it should disengage the flywheel that it doesn't. It also would explain why, even after the bendix is fried, I am able to get the pinion to engage on occasion. It's just close enough for that without the spacer.

You try to leave the Cruiser's Forum, but damnit... I don't think it's possible. With all the help and good people on here, I have no choice but to stick around. There is no escape, unless you sell your boat, I think... ha ha ha

Thanks again for this very helpful post. I'll post some results after I call the starter place up.
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Old 28-03-2007, 13:27   #6
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Ugh... no dice. They have no clue what the Perkins number is. They were expecting a much longer number with letters and numbers throughout. I guess I'll try and translate Bill's number into some other brand to cross-reference. A hand cranked diesel would be a blessing right now.
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Old 28-03-2007, 13:49   #7
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The starter people couldn't place that Perkins number and were expecting a much larger number. However, I did find a site that cross references this number with some Delco Remy numbers, which the starter guys understood. Eureka!!

Here is a list of the cross referenced numbers in case anyone runs into this problem:
  • 12-Tooth Drive
  • Replaces: Perkins No. NA000623 & NA000034
  • Replaces Delco Remy No.s 1113279, 1113280, 1109272, 1998334
Oddly, my 1983 Perkins manual specifies a 10 tooth pinion. This is a 12 tooth. Maybe I have an out of date service manual. Also, I think the missing spacer has been my real problem all along If the bendix is going too far in, it would behave like in my description of the problem on the other thread. Makes logical sense.

If anyone runs into starter issues with the 4.108, unfortunately, I'm becoming an expert. ha ha Feel free to ask anything. Also, I am pulling the starter tonight, getting another new one tomorrow and will install tomorrow with the spacer (found locally as well). I'll post results in the afternoon.
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Old 28-03-2007, 17:29   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssullivan
You try to leave the Cruiser's Forum, but damnit... I don't think it's possible. With all the help and good people on here, I have no choice but to stick around. There is no escape, unless you sell your boat, I think... ha ha ha
Welcome back, by the way. I hope your starter issue resolved quickly!
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Old 01-04-2007, 11:29   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssullivan
The starter people couldn't place that Perkins number and were expecting a much larger number. However, I did find a site that cross references this number with some Delco Remy numbers, which the starter guys understood. Eureka!!

Here is a list of the cross referenced numbers in case anyone runs into this problem:
  • 12-Tooth Drive
  • Replaces: Perkins No. NA000623 & NA000034
  • Replaces Delco Remy No.s 1113279, 1113280, 1109272, 1998334
Oddly, my 1983 Perkins manual specifies a 10 tooth pinion. This is a 12 tooth. Maybe I have an out of date service manual. Also, I think the missing spacer has been my real problem all along If the bendix is going too far in, it would behave like in my description of the problem on the other thread. Makes logical sense.

If anyone runs into starter issues with the 4.108, unfortunately, I'm becoming an expert. ha ha Feel free to ask anything. Also, I am pulling the starter tonight, getting another new one tomorrow and will install tomorrow with the spacer (found locally as well). I'll post results in the afternoon.
Well, my starter is also giving me some problems - the drive does not engage every time, I hear some teeth gringing and when I let go of the switch it speens down freely. I got 4107 but I do not think it matters. I took the starter out and it has "1107588 8 C28 DELCO-REMY" stamped on it, nothing else. Manual says Lucas M45G RF17 10-teeth pinion but my pinion has 12 (counted it)...So what does replace it? Can I replace it with 10-teeth pinion (probably more torque less RPM)?
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Old 01-04-2007, 14:50   #10
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After diagnosing this starter problem, I can offer some advice:

There are two things that can be wrong:

1) You have some degraded connections between the starter and battery. Check to see you are getting an adequate voltage at the starter itself when you are cranking it (while it operates).

2) Your bendix is not working correctly and needs to be replaced/rebuilt. The benix is the little gizmo in side the starter that pushes the pinion out to make contact with the flywheel.
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Old 01-04-2007, 19:43   #11
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If your starter is spinning but not engaging into the fly wheel, then your starter solinoid is not working. The starter solinoid is what engages the starter gear into the flywheel.The starter solinoid is located on the outside of the starter and comes off with about two screws and a bolt and is simple to replace but you may need to take the starter off more than likely. As far as not getting enough voltage, you would want to check your positive and negative cables as I have found they can look fine on the outside but cut them open and they are black and contaminated. A sure sign of bad cables is hot cables when trying to start. Good ground connections are very important and I like using two heavy duty ground cables.
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Old 08-04-2007, 01:29   #12
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There are two types of starter devices. Well actually there are more, but in the modern day engine and in the size we are all generaly talking about, there are two. The Bendix and the solinoid. The Perkins that has been talked about above is mostly using a Bendix type starter. This engages by the torque of the starter thowing a gear forward along it's shaft and engaging the flywheel ring gear.
The second is the Solinoid type. This has a magentic device that throws the gear along the saft to do the same as above. A No.2a version of that was on slightly older engines where the solinoid was actually a pull cord that the operator used to engage the gear instead of the magnetic device.
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Old 08-04-2007, 08:42   #13
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Quote:
This has a magentic device that throws the gear along the saft to do the same as above.
Alan, I see you are practicing your Chimese. GRRR-ate..
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Old 13-05-2007, 07:36   #14
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Perkins Delco Starter - HELP Save Our Sanity

Sean, Alan, anybody-

Opposite problem - our starter will NOT disengage from the flywheel.
Delco 110587 on Perkins 4108.
On starting for first time after relaunch, "solenoid stuck" we thought, but engine started, and solenoid released.
A week later, turned key, engine did not start, starter did not shut off, ran for apparent eternity (3-4 minutes?) until I pulled battery lead to shut off (long story why no battery disconnect switch, but there will be one).
Yard mechanic came on, tried starter twice, second time it quit, as it was fried. Rebuilt on same day service (Providence Auto Ignition in Cranston, RI, $150).
Working on boat for us are two friends, electrical engineers, one with long experience working on boats and diesels.
Starter reinstalled (this is great fun on our boat). Turn key, engine turns, doesn't start, starter doesn't disengage. These guys tested everything I think. Ignition switch (good), removed starter, bench tested, solenoid operates normally. Reinstalled starter, tested, same problem.
The best guess is that somehow the flywheel doesn't let go of the starter gear. No idea why. The starter is one year old, gears appear OK. They were careful to check alignment on reinstallation, even slightly loosened bolts to allow play. This starter worked fine all last season used almost every day. It sat for six months, nobody touched it.
Any ideas or suggestions or sources. This is Sunday, the friends will try again around 1:00 today, and we will have access to the yard mechanic Monday if not booked up (he has been).
Very depressed, going nuts in Wickford RI, thanks for reading.
Regards, Neill and Donna
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Old 13-05-2007, 07:47   #15
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First things first: Do you have the aluminum spacer installed between your starter and the flywheel housing? The 3 bolts should pass through the starter, spacer and flywheel housing, securing the starter in place and the correct distance from the flywheel.

My new starter did not disengage either for a bit... this was due to the missing spacer causing the starter to be too close to the flywheel.
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