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Old 13-05-2007, 07:54   #16
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Please read down for hypothosys:



Quote:
Originally Posted by acesatsea
Sean, Alan, anybody-

Opposite problem - our starter will NOT disengage from the flywheel.
Delco 110587 on Perkins 4108.
On starting for first time after relaunch, "solenoid stuck" we thought, but engine started, and solenoid released.

**Solenoid problem - stuck as suspected

A week later, turned key, engine did not start, starter did not shut off, ran for apparent eternity (3-4 minutes?) until I pulled battery lead to shut off (long story why no battery disconnect switch, but there will be one).

**Solenoid (the one that is mounted on the Perkins or nearby, not the starter) stuck and sending juice to the starter until you pulled the lead.

Yard mechanic came on, tried starter twice, second time it quit, as it was fried. Rebuilt on same day service (Providence Auto Ignition in Cranston, RI, $150).

**It was tired. Mine died pretty easily when not operating properly too.
Working on boat for us are two friends, electrical engineers, one with long experience working on boats and diesels.
Starter reinstalled (this is great fun on our boat).

*Great times on mine too. The best part is installing it several times in one year.

Turn key, engine turns, doesn't start, starter doesn't disengage. These guys tested everything I think. Ignition switch (good), removed starter, bench tested, solenoid operates normally. Reinstalled starter, tested, same problem.

**Engine turns, but doesn't start?? Why not? If the enging is turning/cranking and not starting (then destroying the still engaged starter) there is a problem. Your diesel should start either way.


The best guess is that somehow the flywheel doesn't let go of the starter gear. No idea why.

**Mine didn't let go due to the missing spacer. Check and DOUBLE CHECK that the rebuilt starter you got back included the spacer. That would cause the trouble you're describing.

The starter is one year old, gears appear OK. They were careful to check alignment on reinstallation, even slightly loosened bolts to allow play.

**Bad idea. Don't loosen the bolts to allow play. Could cause some serious problems with your flywheel.

This starter worked fine all last season used almost every day. It sat for six months, nobody touched it.
Any ideas or suggestions or sources. This is Sunday, the friends will try again around 1:00 today, and we will have access to the yard mechanic Monday if not booked up (he has been).

**Still think that you had 2 problems. First, the original starter crapped out with a stuck solenoid or stuck solenoid in the starter circuit mounted on the Perkins. Then... you may have got a starter back from rebuild without the ever important spacer.

Very depressed, going nuts in Wickford RI, thanks for reading.

**I hear that. I thought sailing was supposed to be fun?? I'm stuck in Long Island depressed that I just ripped my batten pockets on my main and can't get to where you are located right now! What's up with this weather. I need a window to get up to Maine.

Regards, Neill and Donna
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Old 13-05-2007, 08:48   #17
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Update:
Took the starter out and inspected - the solenoid contacts were quite burned and so were the starter brushes. Replaced the brushes and solenoid (found equivalents in napa auto parts). Also cleaned connector/cables on the starter. This DID NOT fixed the problem - still engages fully only 1 in 5 attempts, in the rest doing a turn or two and disengages.
One more experiment to try before deciding to replace the whole starter - try to start by directly connecting the solenoid wire to the battery.
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Old 13-05-2007, 08:58   #18
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Disengaging

Sean, thanks for responses.

Nice analysis, two-cause problems always headache.

But -- the spacer (we called it a flange) is there, maybe 3/4" thick. It never left the boat. The starter is ours, rebuilt.

Conumdrum is why the problem started after storage, and now have identical symptoms on 'new' starter and solenoid. ??

Regards, Neill
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Old 08-06-2008, 13:55   #19
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Perkins 4-108 Starter

hello all;
I have the same problem with a new solenoid and 12 tooth starter. I removed the motor mount just aft of the starter and can see that the teeth are not disengaging. I do have the spacer installed. I certainly would to know how you solved the problem

Thanks
Steelywood

Quote:
Originally Posted by acesatsea View Post
Sean, thanks for responses.

Nice analysis, two-cause problems always headache.

But -- the spacer (we called it a flange) is there, maybe 3/4" thick. It never left the boat. The starter is ours, rebuilt.

Conumdrum is why the problem started after storage, and now have identical symptoms on 'new' starter and solenoid. ??

Regards, Neill
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:40   #20
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Perkins 4-108 Starter Model Info??

Update on Etude's starter problems (legion they be), June 2008
A brief review: May 2007, (1) engine started, wouldn't shut down, (2)starter solenoid did not disengage. Starter burned out. First rebuild did not solve solenoid problem.
One -- This turned out to be a problem in poorly assembled fuel shut-off linkage. Sometimes have to use screw-driver to push shut-off lever.
Two -- the solenoid disengage problem was solved by having the started again renewed by another shop, who installed a more robust spring to kick the solenoid back out of the pinion gear.
This is May of 2007. The starter worked fine, until December, when for no apparent reason the starter died, due to armature breaking down, in Wrightsville Beach, NC.
Now, having the starter removed and reinstalled five times in 22 months, having quit on us two times, we throw in the towel on rebuilt starters. The mechanic obtains a NEW Delco-Remy starter, an improved version with a reduction gear, which is lighter and thus easier to install.
The new starter had no problem with the solenoid sticking, and starts just fine. We have only six months on it, but I'll knock wood and hold breath.
MORALwhich I probably don't have to say) A starter failure can be tedious or expensive at best, and disastrous at worst. When you have any problem with yours, why try to save $80 on the cost of buying a new one?
Regards, Bligh
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:07   #21
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When chatting with the guys at British Marine in Oakland Ca, They said the most common starter problem comes from low voltage.. the starters like it high, really high and their recomendations were to add a "high-amp" battery just for starting.
Most cruisers will let their battery banks drop and at the 50% level, start the motor and do a charge....Its that 50% level that hurts the starter..
But I do like that idea of the gear reduction unit... I'll have to grab a spare.
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Old 22-06-2008, 06:56   #22
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Hi All

I have a tech question on this starter - Does anyone know the maximum amps the starter draws?

I am installing a Xantrex inverter charger with a link 2000 controller and there is a shunt rated at 500 amps max tied into the negative side of the batteries in order to read current draw. If the amperage draw on the starter is above 500, it should not be connected to the load side of the shunt. Obviously it is preferable for me to be able to find out how much the starter is affecting the starting battery so I am hoping it is less than 500 amps.

I have Googled the part number M45G Type rf17 and a couple of sites come up but none with the technical info.

Any help is appreciated.
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Old 22-06-2008, 08:25   #23
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I don't know the max amps, but I do know you can connect starters through the Xantrex shunt. It's done all the time.

I could be wrong, but way back on the board here somewhere, I remember Rick (from Seattle) mentioning that you can indeed connect a starter through the shunt.

Sorry I can't be more specific. Just speaking out of experience and memory of what was said on this forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny View Post
Hi All

I have a tech question on this starter - Does anyone know the maximum amps the starter draws?

I am installing a Xantrex inverter charger with a link 2000 controller and there is a shunt rated at 500 amps max tied into the negative side of the batteries in order to read current draw. If the amperage draw on the starter is above 500, it should not be connected to the load side of the shunt. Obviously it is preferable for me to be able to find out how much the starter is affecting the starting battery so I am hoping it is less than 500 amps.

I have Googled the part number M45G Type rf17 and a couple of sites come up but none with the technical info.

Any help is appreciated.
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Old 22-06-2008, 09:31   #24
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Thanks Sully - I realize there are many factors affecting how much current will be drawn given many variables ie: temperature, how loose the engine is - bearings etc - as some engines are harder to turn over than others of the same make. I was looking for a maximum current draw which the starter would be rated at as the Xantrex installation booklet advises not to connect a starter for this shunt if it draws more than 500 amps. I am putting an echo charger on this starting battery and the alternator will charge the main bank from which the echo charge is drawn so it is not critical that I measure this current draw however, since I have the link 2000, it would be nice to be able to completely measure all the battery functions for both battery banks which would not happen with the starter battery if i bypassed the shunt for the starter.

I found another discussion forum that has a formula for measuring amp draw from your starter by testing a calculated length of the starter battery cable while cranking the engine. I may have to give this a try.

Also I found out that the M35G starter max is 350 amps so maybe the M45G max is 450 - maybe that's what the number stands for.

In any event, I'll keep looking for the answer.

Thanks for the input.
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Old 23-06-2008, 00:10   #25
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The Starter is certainly lower that 500A. The shunt will actually handle more than 500A for a short duration (like starting).
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Old 17-07-2008, 14:13   #26
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Hi does anyone know if there is a direct replacement for the 4108 starter motor MG45 RF17.
Also do you have any tips if the pion does not engage in a starter. I have read that the power leads may need to be looked at
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Old 17-01-2010, 21:34   #27
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Found some good information here - thanks. Currently having starter problems with my Perkins 4.108M. Gradually eliminating wiring problems, connections etc and now have starter motor out being reconditioned. The joys of being a relative novice buying an older, affordable boat!
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Old 20-01-2010, 17:10   #28
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I took mine to a shop that specialized in deisle truck alt's and electrical. Removed the head and put on a new motor and bendix. All for $160. I couldn't be happier.

Avoid the marine shops, go with the truckers.
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