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Old 09-07-2013, 13:28   #1
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parallel hybrid for propulsion

here's a relatively novel approach to propulsion I came across the other day. This would be my fantasy system aboard but it's expensive

Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

So you can motor as normal, motor all electric, operate as generator only, generate from the prop while sailing.

Good range of engine sizes and retrofit capable.
No, i'm not connected...

Just wondering if anyone had any experience with this or similar setup?
allio
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Old 09-07-2013, 13:30   #2
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

That, and many other systems covered here... Integration of systems

There will come a day when most sailboats will only have a very small 7~10 hp diesel DC generator for topping the lithium batteries for constant 6 kt propulsion via electric motor or being able to run two zones of A/C while on the hook. Everything will be powered from the inverter including a fully electric galley, electric BBQ and electric dinghy. Gone will be gasoline, propane, and AC gen sets.
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Old 09-07-2013, 13:50   #3
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

Regeneration an issue - unless adjustable pitch prop in place.

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Old 09-07-2013, 13:55   #4
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

A Max prop when last used in astern propulsion won't feather like it does when last used for forward, and being pitched for astern would be very efficient for re-gen.
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Old 09-07-2013, 16:09   #5
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
That, and many other systems covered here... Integration of systems

There will come a day when most sailboats will only have a very small 7~10 hp diesel DC generator for topping the lithium batteries for constant 6 kt propulsion via electric motor or being able to run two zones of A/C while on the hook. Everything will be powered from the inverter including a fully electric galley, electric BBQ and electric dinghy. Gone will be gasoline, propane, and AC gen sets.
As long as you have a boat that can be driven at 6 knots by 5 - 7 hp.
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Old 09-07-2013, 16:30   #6
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

What is novel about it? The 1997 Prius is setup essentially the same (yes, that was 16 years ago) with its split-power planetary, the gas engine can drive the wheels (prop),
the wheels can regen to the battery. The electric motor can drive the wheels, or the engine can run the generator, or any combination.
It is a simple powerful design.



For a sailboat, being able to removing the prop from the water I think is more important than getting regen from it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Allio View Post
here's a relatively novel approach to propulsion I came across the other day. This would be my fantasy system aboard but it's expensive

Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

So you can motor as normal, motor all electric, operate as generator only, generate from the prop while sailing.

Good range of engine sizes and retrofit capable.
No, i'm not connected...

Just wondering if anyone had any experience with this or similar setup?
allio
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Old 09-07-2013, 17:08   #7
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
For a sailboat, being able to removing the prop from the water I think is more important than getting regen from it.
I agree.

Why would you want to slow your sailboat down to generate power? I want to sail as fast as I can go.

Let the solar panels and generator’s charge the batteries
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:31   #8
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

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Why would you want to slow your sailboat down to generate power? I want to sail as fast as I can go.
Drag from regeneration appears to be close to that from a freewheeling fixed prop.
http://www.flexofold.com/upload_dir/...low.pdf‎ has a good chart on page 3 for estimating the additional drag - at 6 knots regeneration is costing you about 0.3 of a knot, and rapidly dropping - 0.2 of a knot at 7 knots, and so on.
At low speed it's a different story - the difference between 2.5 and 3 knots - and the power you generate will be pretty low. Ultimately, I think it's a good compromise - people who want to go really fast and don't mind the engine going can always get a powerboat after all
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Old 10-07-2013, 03:05   #9
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

Pay some minutes of your attention to TWIN DISC - We put horsepower to work in the News and Events section: saildrive or shaft line, but with hybrid propulsion...and it works on various boats.

Bateries? GEL or AGM or LITHIUM

Look for BluEmission and/or oceanomaredelphis (the Jean Cab sailboat) and http://ascomac.it/adm/UserFiles/file...N%20IBRIDO.pdf
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:07   #10
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

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Originally Posted by cbax View Post
Pay some minutes of your attention to TWIN DISC - We put horsepower to work in the News and Events section: saildrive or shaft line, but with hybrid propulsion...and it works on various boats.

Bateries? GEL or AGM or LITHIUM

Look for BluEmission and/or oceanomaredelphis (the Jean Cab sailboat) and http://ascomac.it/adm/UserFiles/file...N%20IBRIDO.pdf
heath robinson eat your heart out!

i guess they must have got E.U funding!

now instead of just a mechanic to work on your boat,you will need a mechanic,a mechanical engineer,and an electronic engineer!

apart from the gearbox and alternator/motor i hate to think how much all those cv joints and flexible couplings cost,alighnment must be an absolute nightmare...

intresting wiring as well on an alloy boat........fizzzzzzz
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:10   #11
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

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Drag from regeneration appears to be close to that from a freewheeling fixed prop.
www.flexofold.com/upload_dir/docs/Test_YachtingMonthly_low.pdf‎ has a good chart on page 3 for estimating the additional drag - at 6 knots regeneration is costing you about 0.3 of a knot, and rapidly dropping - 0.2 of a knot at 7 knots, and so on.
At low speed it's a different story - the difference between 2.5 and 3 knots - and the power you generate will be pretty low. Ultimately, I think it's a good compromise - people who want to go really fast and don't mind the engine going can always get a powerboat after all
I have two folding props that give my boat maximum sailing speed. Why would anyone want two fixed props spinning to make power. Its like dragging two 5 gallon buckets in the water to slow you down.

Do you drive your car with your foot on the brakes?

Solar and generator are much better for putting power back into the house bank.
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:36   #12
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

Dear Atoll
1) no funds: everything has been done investing the company money
2) no cardans or other silly complicated things, but ordinary and customary equipment
3) it takes a couple of days to "hybridize" a boat: the key issue is to find a place where to put the batteries

Cost? less than 10.000 euros including batteries and labor
Savings? A typical fishing boat can save up to 50 euro/day when sailing 4-6 hours a day. Can you do better? Please list.

Boats equipped and sailing: these are not demo boat, but standard. And the owners paid for (no give aways, no gifts, no black money).

Why such a negative approach of yours? First check, trial and then criticize (but with numbers and figures, not "world of mouth").
Why don't you contact the Oceanomare delphis people (via facebook etc.) to know if this is true or fake?

These are not "supergreen" solutions, but temporary-intermediate steps, using existing and relatively inexpensive technology. No dreams, no baloneys.
Just solutions that work and help you saving some money (medium term) and reduce (not avoid) pollution.
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:54   #13
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

10000~50= 200 days,or roughly a years fishing to break even,not including breakdowns due to the cumbersome instalation,cant see the savings.

also i am guessing you used the unsubsidised fuel cost for your calculation.

using sudsidised(tax free fuel) i'm guessing the break even point would be nearer 3 years,by which time the whole system would be in need of a rebuild on the fishing boats i work on!
due to running refigeration,pumps,house electrics etc our engine generally does not stop for 9-10 days we go out fishing!
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:41   #14
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

I've been doing post #1 system since 2009, the cat since 2004.
It seems I go over this at least 2X a year.
Come on "dragging 2-5 gallon buckets"?
How much speed is lost with a dirty bottom?
How much speed is lost becouse your manufacture requires your sail drives to be locked when not in use?
How often in big water do you want to actualy slow down?
How often have I read about folding props failing?

The benifits of Regen far out reach the loss of 1/2 to less then 1 knot of speed loss.

Steve in Solomons MD
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:18   #15
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Re: parallel hybrid for propulsion

Just been reading up a bit on batteries, and it looks like the extra weight of them may have been somewhat overestimated.

Lithium-Sulphur batteries are currently ~350 Wh/kg, with ~600 Wh/kg looking practical in the near future. That's just under 2 kg/kWh.

Diesel engines and generators consume about ~300g/kWh (0.3 kg/kWh). They also have an overhead weight of ~100 kg more than that of an electric motor for the engine, and another ~100kg for the house batteries.

Hence for break even, 200 + 0.3 x = 2 x, about 120 kWh or 36 litres (10 US Gallons) - so if you only ever use about this much between opportunities for shore power a diesel system will be lighter, and electricity will usually be cheaper than diesel.

For a typical 45 Gallon tank, that's equivalent to 470 kWh. The diesel equivalent is ~340 kg, batteries 940 kg. IOW, a 600 kg penalty for an all-electric boat with the same performance.

Cost is incomparably higher right now, and battery life is still very low - but that's changing...
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