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Old 18-11-2011, 00:37   #106
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

i had to use a 8hp yanma diesel going flat out for 16 hrs to get under a bluff to shelter from 60kts of wind in a 30ft. try;4 ft. of rolled main up,doing 1/2 a knot and worried of being flipped at any time.It doesnt matter how one gets to shelter or how you keep of a lee shore i know a small electric motor wont do it.In a small boat the weather becomes the ruler.
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Old 18-11-2011, 04:12   #107
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

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I'll take that bridge, and raise you two islands in the south pacific.
I think you are in the right forum to offer that deal
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Old 18-11-2011, 18:29   #108
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

It's amazing that so little cruisers get to lee shores... I'm there all the time

How about when your destination is on a lee shore? Surely most of you had to deal with that?!

The 5-bays area on the North coast of Colombia... we entered the fjord-like bay surfing from 15-20' waves in 40+ knots wind. This is typical for that area, so most who visited there experienced this. I also remember Lowestoft UK... the almanac called it a "lively entrance" when it's a lee shore... they were right and you have to slalom between sand banks you can't see.. approach of Flushing (the real one, in Holland) was another tight one without room for error.

ciao!
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Old 19-11-2011, 08:14   #109
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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All that mast, rigging and sail failure and you still aint got the message.....
Buy a Motorboat....
Lol. Not all on my own boat.
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Old 19-11-2011, 10:40   #110
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Ok, to answer a question asked me about why my sails were down when we had to power off the rocks on Oh Joy. Night was falling rapidly and my GPS was dying as well (seems that the 12V power wasn't working and the AA's were about done) so I had a choice of making a port I'd never been to at dusk or making another unknown port well after dark, one with channel issues. I chose the former and sailed in 60+ on a beam reach to get to Point Hudson. We had come into the wind to douse out side of the entrance (which I couldn't really see but knew was somewhere there) as there was no room to douse in the marina. Due to weather, dark and lousy markings, I missed the approach the first time around. The result was being less than 100' from the rocks when I spun into the wind and powered off. Dead windward was the only way out as I has motored into a pocket. Smashing into the waves under power looked like scenes from "The Deadliest Catch".
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Old 19-11-2011, 11:09   #111
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

In response to the original post; I have had occasion to "claw off a lee shore'. In 2003 sailing with my Cuban wife - her first sailing experience - off the northeast coast of Cuba under clear blue skies with a gentle southerly wind we kept 100 metres off the reef which was easily visible in the calm water. The sky began to change very quickly, although the forecast was for continued calm weather, and I saw trouble coming so we dropped the big light air sail and as things were going to deteriorate very fast, I hoisted the storm jib and trisail - which both stay hanked on and ready for use. The wind hit from the north at 50+ kts. We were able to sail at about 45' to the wind, a course that took us away from the danger of the reef. I had started the engine just in case but the angle of heel kept the cooling water intake above the waterline so I shut it down. We had 2 anchors ready but sailed nicely with the wind vane steering. The winds dropped to around 30-40kts and we were able to sail down the coast and into the shelter of an island via a wide, deep channel.
There was another small boat with us, they had a roller furling headsail and no trisail so had to rely on their engine which was acting up - dirty fuel stirred up by the waves - they managed to motor off the reef but it was a near thing.
My choice was and still is to depend on my sails and anchors for safety and to use my engine for convenience.
I later heard that several boats were damaged or lost in the Bahanas - it was called "an upper level disturbance" but it was hell at the surface.
PS my wife loved the experience and now prefers heavy weather sailing to calm
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Old 19-11-2011, 11:38   #112
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Delmarrey gets the prize! I am from Texas and I needed my tallest boots to read this thread!
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Old 19-11-2011, 11:38   #113
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

We are fairly new to sailing, so this summer we headed across the Strait of Georgia, which is a large seaway between the Vancouver mainland and Vancouver island. we arrived and spent the night at Silva bay, on Gabriola Island, then departed the next day heading back across the strait to Vancouver in our Hunter 31. Winds were forecast to be 25-30 knots, diminishing late in the afternoon. Silva Bay can be a bit tricky, with a number of rocks and reefs to navigate, and, as we left the bay we were surprised at the size of the waves, not realizing 25 knots in an open waterway is not the same as 25 knots in Vancouvers English Bay. We were powering out with a Yanmar GMF, only 13 hp, and trying to get past a rock off our port bow before pointing to windward to hoist the main. I also decided to single reef the main, which involves a fair bit of rigging from the bow. The wind and waves kept getting worse, and we realized we were making no progress to clear the rock, but appeared to be getting closer to Thrasher rock, a large series of rocks about a half mile of our starboard, so named for the ship "Thrasher" which came to grief on the rock around the turn of the century.
I ran the engine to about 3,200, but still could not clear the small rock 300' to our port side, to enable us to go to windward and hoist the main, and by now the waves were so big, going out on to the bow to reef was no longer an option. Thrasher rock kept getting closer, and it became apparent something needed to be done. my wife suggested putting up the genny, but I thought that would push the bow downwind and make controlling the boat to difficult. So now we have: a rock off the port side, a huge rock on our lee, which is getting closer by the minute, an engine which can't make headway against the wind and waves, and an inexperienced and stubborn Skipper. I finally unrolled the genny, hardened the sheet, and watched in both relief and amazement as our speed went to 7 knots, thrasher Rock began disappearing astern and we headed out across the strait. It was a rough crossing, but we learned some valuable lessons, and gained some experience and confidence.
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Old 19-11-2011, 15:01   #114
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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I finally unrolled the genny, hardened the sheet, and watched in both relief and amazement as our speed went to 7 knots, thrasher Rock began disappearing astern and we headed out across the strait.
Like I've been saying for ever: keep sailing, no matter how bad the conditions are. Engine is auxiliary.

ciao!
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Old 22-11-2011, 10:44   #115
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

trying to sail down from port stephens a couple of years ago in a boat with disabled engine - after three days at sea, inadequate sleep, a knockdown that tore my mainsail in half (fortunately just below the reef line) and a contrary change of weather that saw me drifting towards new zealand under bare spars I learned that the romance of sailing without an adequate engine is nice to daydream about when you're lying under a tree on a sunny day...
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Old 22-11-2011, 12:01   #116
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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trying to sail down from port stephens a couple of years ago in a boat with disabled engine - after three days at sea, inadequate sleep, a knockdown that tore my mainsail in half (fortunately just below the reef line) and a contrary change of weather that saw me drifting towards new zealand under bare spars I learned that the romance of sailing without an adequate engine is nice to daydream about when you're lying under a tree on a sunny day...

It may be an auxiliary, but it's an important one to "most" people. Being cocky enough to insist that it's never necessary and one should always sail means that beginners should never sail.
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Old 22-11-2011, 12:19   #117
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I sailed for a year without an engine. It was interesting to say the least. I prefer to have that horsepower handy thank you very much.
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Old 22-11-2011, 12:20   #118
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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It may be an auxiliary, but it's an important one to "most" people. Being cocky enough to insist that it's never necessary and one should always sail means that beginners should never sail.
Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see the OP make the assertion that people should sail without any motor. He freely admits he has an auxiliary motor, its just weaker and has a shorter range compared to most.

You seem to be overstating his case in order to discredit him.
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Old 22-11-2011, 14:27   #119
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Sigh....

To the charge that sailing my Flicka upwind into 50 knots is "bs" - well, Yea, I said it was gusting over 40, and was a steady 30 to 35. It was a freak event, and several boats were blown ashore at Catalina by the same wind - peak gusts elsewhere around LA (Passes and canyons) were over 70mph, and it hit from the northeast - a sudden "Santa Ana" wind from the desert that did not follow the characteristic pattern, and was very early and powerful in the season.

windspeed was measured at the USC information Sciences annemometer, which is located about 100 feet off the ground atop an office building - I do not know how exposed that anemometer is, or the effects of its hieght, nor am I in possesion of it's NIST certification papers.

What I do know is that it consistently cross checks with my windspeed observations and measurements at sea, usually withing 4 or 5 knots - I figure its hieght makes up for its inland location - the wind usually blows harder at sea and from a slightly different direction due to less turbulance and obstruction.

Do some research on Santa Ana winds - they are the most dangerous and unpredicatble gales for so-cal sailors, and they frequently attain hurricane force - out of a clear blue sky - and they are gusty, making things even more difficult. The Pardeys wrote somewhere about upper Newport bay experiencing 90 mph gusts.

They flip Semis and campers on the freeways, blow down powerlines, tear roofs off houses, and wreak other havock inland. They fan massive brushfires - some of which have burnt for over a month. There was a famous one that hit a fleet of crusiers out in the channel islands back in the 70ies around Thanksgiving - dozens of boats were lost, something like 80 people had to be rescued, and normally calm anchorages had 6 foot breaking waves and hurricane force winds blowing into them. Peak gusts were over 80mph at San Miguel Island, and these are not "rare" events in season, they happen quite regularly out here in the winter.

I never bullshit.

You must keep the main up to move upwind in a Flicka without horrendous leeway. Without a jib up, the situation is even worse - she will not go to weather reliably, and certainly wont tack - you really need both sails up and drawing to keep moving to windward.

....and self tailing winches are liability when trying to short tack up the center channel of MDR's main fairway, and they are a liability when you need to quickly ease the sheets - I have the "winchers" semi self tailers on my primary winches, and only use them to help retrieve my stern anchor.

....and dont get me started on roller furling. Talk about "Making your boat less seaworthy".... I like to have the right headsail of the proper wieght and cut hanked on and drawing for the conditions and point of sail, and I like the fact my sails come down instantly if I blow the halyard, and I have no fear of my foredeck - just a healthy respect for it, netted liflines, jacklines, and a dozen additional handholds on the way out there for insurance.

Downwind, a prudent skipper dowses a Flicka's main when the apparent wind exceeds 20 knots, because the main tends to cause broaching, and is no longer needed for driving her - trust me - I've hit 8 knots surfing down waves with just a 110 jib up and the main dowsed and secured. She only draws 3' and she has a soft wine-glass bilge - this makes her initially tender, and ultimately stiff, but she likes to roll guwale to gunwale dead downwind unless managed correctly - with a small jib sheeted flat amidships your best bet downwind when it starts pushing 30 knots apparent - where she will weathercock and runoff with the helm lashed, and the jib will reduce her rolling, and blow the bow off if she tries to round up or down while surfing.

My ST2000 tiller pilot cant sort things out on a dead run under such conditions - tends to zig when it should zag leading to some rather scary moments.

We'll see how the x-5 I just installed handles it, but really,

The old outboard was only marginally effective when the seas kick-up on ANY point of sail, and outboards are vulnerable back there to all sorts of mischief.

In short, she's a squirely boat downwind, and is at her best broad reaching and jibing under headsail alone while hand steering off the wind when it gets ugly.

I'm ordering a series drouge just in case I manage to get caught out in anything where bare poles are too much downwind, or storm sails upwind, but really: I will do my very best to avoid such scenarios, and I dont see how a motor - in board, outboard, gas, electric, Deisel, or all of the above will be of much use in anything other than a panicked attempt to bail out of anchorage with all my sails bagged and stowed, and it sounds iffy even then....

There's the 225 feet of chain spliced to another 240 feet of nylon, the Rockna 10, and windlass upfront, alowiing 10:1 scope in 40 feet of water, or 5:1 in 80 - and an Fortress FX 16 and rode in the bilge, another Fortress FX 7 on the stern, and a 16lb bruce in the cockpit locker - all with dedicated 250 foot long 1/2" brait rodes, chain leaders, and hours of practice on my part setting and retrieving them - as a last resort.

Remeber - its a SAIL boat. It was designed to SAIL, and its design dates back to the 1840s, where the lifes of the fishermen who sailed it depended on it's sailing - not motoring - abilities.

....Now a modern J boat with roller furling, a flat bottom, balanced spade rudder, and high aspect keel, spindly rig, and unbalanced sail plan designed to some silly racing rule is another animal completely -

Then, I'd want the biggest engine I could shoehorn into her bilge for when the furler jambs in a gale, and her bow is doing the old IOR submarine dance, 'cuase hell if I'm going out on THAT fordeck in a blow....

;-)
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Old 22-11-2011, 16:07   #120
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I can't decide...



or



or



or

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