Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-11-2011, 18:05   #76
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,217
Images: 2
pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
(not aimed at anyone in particular, especially Hoagie but there seems to be a huge frequency of 60-80 knot unforecast wind out there lately. I reckon it must be due global warming.)
There you go again with the 'Global Warming Troll'... give it up mate....
Everyone knows that unforecast wind is caused by the excessive Hienz Baked Beans consumed by the growing under $500 Sailing Club...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline  
Old 16-11-2011, 18:22   #77
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
There you go again with the 'Global Warming Troll'... give it up mate....
Everyone knows that unforecast wind is caused by the excessive Hienz Baked Beans consumed by the growing under $500 Sailing Club...
I believe Christopher Columbus called that breaking wind.
__________________

__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline  
Old 16-11-2011, 18:39   #78
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
"I was caught out in a sudden Northeast gale that had peak gusts of 50knots - 3 miles inland."

I think he meant that the wind speed of 50 knts was recorded 3 miles inland, not that his boat was 3 miles inland!

I also think there is a safety advantage to be had in having a large engine with large tankage. It allows you to motor out of the way of bad weather at hull speed, aside from any "lee shore" issues.

Igirisu wa muzukashi desu yo!

I am from California so english is not my first language - LOL
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline  
Old 16-11-2011, 18:46   #79
Registered User
 
GeoPowers's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Gulfport, MS
Boat: Beneteau 393
Posts: 947
Images: 27
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I absolutely hate getting caught 3 miles inland in a gale. The wheels on my boat are just too small to ride out the speed bumps at the piggly-wiggly.

Reminds me of the time I was sailng in Asia and was nailed by a tsunami. The wave height lifted me so high I was caught in the Jetstream which was really low due because it was the time of year the jetstream dips low (it was summer - or winter) I was immediately caught in a 180kt wind due to no fault of my own because the weather forecaster was asleep at the wheel and the 12.6 earthquake was ignored because no one knew the relationship between earthquakes and tsunamis at the time - i think it was 1959 or 1995. Of course when the jetstream dips like that you have to be a superior seaman just to survive and so with me here typing on this iPad you can tell I am just such a superior sailor.

The boat did a 360 roll before I could do anything and of course the main and my 200 percent genny were blown out. I didnt worry however because I had a roll of extra strong, extra absorbent Brawny paper towels. These are my storm sails of choice because in a knockdown Brawny is the quicker picker upper. And they are super absorbent. Did I mention the spar was gone too? No problem cuz I whittled one out of a passing tree trunk and raised it with duct tape and packing twine.

I spent 14 days in the jetstream clawing off a lee shore but its no problem because I have trained myself to never need sleep like a sailor is supposed to. Of course I had my crew on board but they were more trouble than help so I sealed them in their bunks and lashed their lee cloths down hard so they wouldn't be in the way.

Some people asked me if I considered using the 1200 hp engine to get off the shore but every one knows that would be cheating and unseamanlike. I'd rather be dead than admit later I used the auxilliary.
Ah yes, been there, done that. In a 16 footer, full keel skeg rudder, 12-inch solid wood plank hull (old racing design). Saw 13 Bendytoys and 36 Hunters break up and get swallowed into the sea- last thing their captains said was something about their chartplotter not working because their keels fell off. Glad I brought my sextant. Actually, my tiller was ripped off by a breaching whale, so I just steered by sail trim and dragging a five gallon bucket. The only downside to it all is the line for the bucket parted and now I've got to find a new shitter- pronto.
GeoPowers is offline  
Old 16-11-2011, 19:59   #80
Registered User
 
Hogan's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: La Paz - sorta
Boat: PSC Flicka 20
Posts: 87
Images: 11
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

First of all -

Thanks to everyone who's replied - even the trolls.

Second - Anecdotally, it looks like an engine saved one or two boats - boats that had their sails furled when 'it' hit the fan.

Third - It sounds like many people have used a combination of power AND sail to escape or weather bad blows, and that an engine is as likely to fail or foul as it is to help, so you better keep those sails rigged and ready to go at anchor.

Fourth - inadequate ground tackle and/or poor anchoring technique, or poor holding ground leads to situations where you are down to the engine as a last resort.

Fith - A powerful engine is unlikely to save you alone in big seas against a lee shore in a gale.

Sixth: Engines quit when you least expect it and most need them.

Seventh: I screwed up grammatically in my gale story. I was at sea, the anemometer (USC Information sciences) was located inland.

Eighth: Some people hate Flicka's. Many Flicka sailors are idiots, I'll grant you that (The latest (Nov 1st, 2011) was a blind, solo circumnavigation wanna-be who was rescued off Ensenada after leaving San Diego - with two powerful, back to back early season Pacific storms in the forecast.

Numb-nutts broke his boom - Know how to do that? SAIL A FLICKA WITH ITS MAIN UP IN ANYTHING OVER 20 KNOTS.

Yea - that will do it.

Rigging a preventer mid boom greatly assists in this, while striking the main and securing the boom will absolutely prevent it.

He also had his (outboard) engine ripped off. Know how to prevent that? SECURE IT PROPERLY, OR REMOVE IT ALLTOGETHER.

I suspect the boat attracts wannabe nubskulls because of its blue-water scantlings and affordability.

It interesting to me that we never hear from these people after their mistakes - which we and they could learn from.

I've found that the boat is quirky, and demanding to sail well - think "big dry dinghy built like a Sherman tank that will not capsize as long as you are not a complete moron"

Not "miniature Queen Mary"....

....and you'll be on the right track.

She's forgiving of really big errors ( Accidental gybes, riding turns, over-canvasing, jib sheet wrapped around your nuts when you blow it to tack, grounding.... running over whales... )

....but not of small ones (improper sail trim, forgetting to close a hatch, too much weather helm, not enough sail up in a small steep chop, etc)

It's a small boat, and it will ALWAYS be a small boat - with shoal draft, a barn door rudder, and a full keel - A boat that must be sailed with all due caution, and respect for her inherent limits. According to the math, a breaking 8' wave will roll her if she's beam-to (she loves lying beam to, and will not properly heave-to under most conditions)

So - I figure "getting rolled" is part of the deal if I head offshore in my little tank, and I've prepared accordingly. My knives are properly stowed, the batteries secured, locker lids barrel bolted, I'm lashed to a padeye low and and forward in the cockpit, and I've shipping a Jordan series drogue, because she lies unhappily bow to, but quite happily stern to when things get truly ugly, I no longer feel like steering, and the tiller pilot is possessed by the devil.

I've a plan for jury rigging a mast if need be with duct tape and my unneeded internal compression post and a spare tiller, and I'll be avoiding the Bering Straight and Cape Horn, thank you very much....though one guy made it around the Cape of Good Hope in his Flicka before he set the poor thing on fire with gasoline trying to refuel a running petrol genny at sea, lol...

...and he had the class to apologize for his stupidy, and for letting down a fine boat -unlike the other circum-wanna bees...

Ninth - I have no plans to circumnavigate "Nomad". It seems truly, utterly pointless to set out with the goal of ending up exactly where you started if you ask me - ...but I might just have to do it at some point to put a stop to all the idiots and glory seekers who keep soiling the reputation of such a fine boat.

If so, It will be via a trade-wind, equatorial route - in season, and with crew, and I'll take my sweet-ass time doing it too, probably 20 or 30 years.

Tenth - Electric propulsion has saved just as many boats as diesel propulsion from lee shores.

and finally, to all the haters:

I'm no troll - I'm simply in the habit of thinking critically as a product of my education and career - so I question "conventional wisdom" before accepting it. I'm a writer, educator, artist, engineer, mechanic, and (retired) Architect, and I've concluded from this thread that the main utility of an engine is in close quarter anchoring (thanks) not "clawing off a lee shore!!!!"- something I already suspected from last summer's sea trails spent anchoring in the crowded, close quarter, lee, deep water, big swell, open ocean roadsteads around steep-to Catalina Island - especially her southwest aspect.

and for the record - I sold everything I own, resigned my professorships, and I moved aboard my ship two years ago.

I've been preparing for my escape from Los Angeles since 2009, and wind weather and tide permitting, I'll be setting sail for La Paz, Mexico in January 2012.

My father's mother was born in in 1904.

She raced a Bristol Corinthian 19 out of New England's Marblehead harbor until she was well into her 80ies, only stopping when she broke her wrist jumping from her boat into the launch.

That boat never had an engine.

It was she who taught me what a "cat's paw" is, and it was she who taught me to always keep an eye to weather for squalls and wind shifts.

She taught me how to steer a compass course offshore, and how to pick a landmark and steer towards it inshore when I just 10 years old.

Once back in the harbor ashe had me shoot her mooring - all under sail - as a child.

Her great uncle was John G. Alden.

So you see - sailing is a sacred thing to me - something I've dedicated my life to, and I want to make sure I do right by my grandmother.

Thanks for your responses and your help. They are truly, deeply appreciated.

__________________
Hogan is offline  
Old 16-11-2011, 20:55   #81
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Thanks for start'n the thread Hogan! We had a lot of fun with it as well as learning somp'm along the way. See ya on the next thread.
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline  
Old 16-11-2011, 21:35   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Down hill towing anything will not get you offshore when you are on a leeshore. Though for a very brief time it will be a lot easier on body and boat.
Well on the west coast it sorta BLOWS from the Nnw in Most of the Big Blows, and the coast sorta slants SE so you CAN get off shore down hill !! guess I should have said where and when but down hill IS Comfortable and safe in some places, and anytime your more comfortable the Boats is a lot safer !! Just n ole mans 2 cents Capt Bob and Connie
__________________
bobconnie is offline  
Old 16-11-2011, 21:59   #83
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,638
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
Well on the west coast it sorta BLOWS from the Nnw in Most of the Big Blows, and the coast sorta slants SE so you CAN get off shore down hill !! guess I should have said where and when but down hill IS Comfortable and safe in some places, and anytime your more comfortable the Boats is a lot safer !! Just n ole mans 2 cents Capt Bob and Connie
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is online now  
Old 16-11-2011, 22:43   #84
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
First of all -


Tenth - Electric propulsion has saved just as many boats as diesel propulsion from lee shores.

.


Very interesting deduction from such a definitive thread as this one.

Most of us see what we want to see.
__________________
downunder is offline  
Old 16-11-2011, 22:55   #85
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New South Wales, Australia
Boat: Bollard 50' Sea Fever Motor Sailer
Posts: 35
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I like knowing that my big diesel engine only has to save me once to be the right choice.
That is what it is there for.
Maybe it might have to save me twice if I have to turn back to rescue someone with a small electric motor caught on a lee shore.
Hope this helps.
Regards. Shiner
__________________
Shiner is offline  
Old 17-11-2011, 02:57   #86
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I absolutely hate getting caught 3 miles inland in a gale. The wheels on my boat are just too small to ride out the speed bumps at the piggly-wiggly.

Reminds me of the time I was sailng in Asia and was nailed by a tsunami. The wave height lifted me so high I was caught in the Jetstream which was really low due because it was the time of year the jetstream dips low (it was summer - or winter) I was immediately caught in a 180kt wind due to no fault of my own because the weather forecaster was asleep at the wheel and the 12.6 earthquake was ignored because no one knew the relationship between earthquakes and tsunamis at the time - i think it was 1959 or 1995. Of course when the jetstream dips like that you have to be a superior seaman just to survive and so with me here typing on this iPad you can tell I am just such a superior sailor.

The boat did a 360 roll before I could do anything and of course the main and my 200 percent genny were blown out. I didnt worry however because I had a roll of extra strong, extra absorbent Brawny paper towels. These are my storm sails of choice because in a knockdown Brawny is the quicker picker upper. And they are super absorbent. Did I mention the spar was gone too? No problem cuz I whittled one out of a passing tree trunk and raised it with duct tape and packing twine.

I spent 14 days in the jetstream clawing off a lee shore but its no problem because I have trained myself to never need sleep like a sailor is supposed to. Of course I had my crew on board but they were more trouble than help so I sealed them in their bunks and lashed their lee cloths down hard so they wouldn't be in the way.

Some people asked me if I considered using the 1200 hp engine to get off the shore but every one knows that would be cheating and unseamanlike. I'd rather be dead than admit later I used the auxilliary.

(not aimed at anyone in particular, especially Hoagie but there seems to be a huge frequency of 60-80 knot unforecast wind out there lately. I reckon it must be due global warming.)


Just lucky you didn't encounter a "rogue" wave - or did this occur before they were invented? (for insurance purposes ).
__________________
David_Old_Jersey is offline  
Old 17-11-2011, 05:45   #87
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 4,584
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
....... - A boat that must be sailed with all due caution, and respect for her inherent limits. ......
Wisely stated, I couldn't agree more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Ninth - I have no plans to circumnavigate "Nomad".......
That's good. If you were planning to, it might make sense to purchase a boat with some more waterline. Although I am really more of the 'you cruise with the boat you have' way of thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
So you see - sailing is a sacred thing to me - something I've dedicated my life to, and I want to make sure I do right by my grandmother.
I like to sail too. That short water line and heavy displacement will limit a lot of the sails. Hope you enjoy Mexico. Your boat should be a lot of fun in the Sea.
__________________
Paul L
http://svjeorgia.blogspot.com
Paul L is online now  
Old 17-11-2011, 06:00   #88
Registered User
 
ozskipper's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NSW Australia
Boat: Traditional 30
Posts: 1,981
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Lost a rig twice on Blowy days (25knots+).. Needed the motor.
Had an injured person on board, three times. Needed the motor.
Lee shore at 3 am- at anchor- when a blow came in. Needed the motor
Shredded Mainsail. Needed the motor.
Broken Lowers. in 30+ knots. Needed the motor
Had to tow someone without a motor (several times). Needed the motor
Caught in storm in bass strait. Engine died. No solar power due to weather. So, no electricity production. Needed the motor.

Witnessed a boat that had been taking water fast and needed to get to a marina stat. They needed the motor.

I could go on. But that's a few from the last 30 years or so.
__________________
Cheers
Oz
...............
ozskipper is offline  
Old 17-11-2011, 06:16   #89
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,217
Images: 2
pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozskipper View Post
Lost a rig twice on Blowy days (25knots+).. Needed the motor.
Had an injured person on board, three times. Needed the motor.
Lee shore at 3 am- at anchor- when a blow came in. Needed the motor
Shredded Mainsail. Needed the motor.
Broken Lowers. in 30+ knots. Needed the motor
Had to tow someone without a motor (several times). Needed the motor
Caught in storm in bass strait. Engine died. No solar power due to weather. So, no electricity production. Needed the motor.

Witnessed a boat that had been taking water fast and needed to get to a marina stat. They needed the motor.

I could go on. But that's a few from the last 30 years or so.
All that mast, rigging and sail failure and you still aint got the message.....
Buy a Motorboat....
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline  
Old 17-11-2011, 07:27   #90
Registered User
 
SV Demeter's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cruising Eastern Caribbean
Boat: Wauquiez Amphitrite 43- Demeter
Posts: 1,164
Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
...Sigh...and so it begins....

No, Its those damned J boats that dont point worth a damn. Flickas go to windward quite well, if you know how to sail them properly, and they bob like a duck over big seas while the "big boats" fight and get hammered by them.

It helps if you have hank on sails - just ask my buddy with the contessa 26, and a 110 on a roller when I've got my 140 hanked on and close hauled.

Or my dockmate with the Yankee Dolphin - A life long offshore racer - who also was unable to walk away from my short, fat, overloaded dumpy little tug boat with the external chainplates in light air.

I'd read the same crap before buying the boat - then in October of 2009, I was caught out in a sudden Northeast gale that had peak gusts of 50knots - 3 miles inland.

Seas were 10 to 15 feet or so, but to be fair, they were with me, as this gale was blowing offshore - so I was in no real danger, except I had a class to teach, and needed to get back in the harbor, which was upwind.

So I tucked in two reefs, and sheeted my smallest sail, an 80% working Jib, INSIDE of the shrouds, and hauled it as flat as I could. Then, I set my tiller pilot, and climbed up on the windward rail, main sheet uncleated and in hand, and luffed the main in the gusts, just like I learned to do sailing and racing dinghys and Lasers.

....and you know what? even in those storm force winds, horribly overcanvansed, she beat to windward like a champ!

sure, it was hell on the main, I was repeatedly knocked down past 50 degrees, and that 80% jib has never been the same since, but I got back into the harbor, and made my class.

Heck, I was so scared I misjudged the breakwater and was unable to lay it, to I had to TACK TWICE to make it back in.

Several other boats - much larger - well, heck, everything is much larger than a Flicka - were motorsailing back in, and their crews looked absolutely terrified as I smiled and waved to them.

I figured they were worried that thier engines were going to quit.

I had a motor too - my POS Suzuki DF6 outboard - but I didnt use it.

Too unreliable to risk my ship on.

I dont believe you. Upwind in 50kts with an 80% jib and a double reefed main? Sorry I was following with interest the debate over auxiliary diesels but the OP's story here is nothing more than pure bullshit.


"Numb-nutts broke his boom - Know how to do that? SAIL A FLICKA WITH ITS MAIN UP IN ANYTHING OVER 20 KNOTS"

I thought you had two reefs in your main in 50kts? How did you not break your boom? Let me guess while your tiller pilot was steering and you were sitting on the rail you reached in and held the boom together with your bare hands? Amazing.
__________________

__________________
SV Demeter is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:49.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.