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Old 11-12-2011, 15:53   #376
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Originally Posted by seahag
Regarding the unfortunate San Diego Flicka incident, this is the first time i've read so much on this forum of people piling on top of a really bad sailing happenstance--usually there's a lot more sympathy no matter the situation. Or, in Hogan's case is it because it involved a Flicka? Causing a bit of a bad name for it? Just heap it on the guy because he didn't overanalyze every sailing situation, every facet of possible problems with the boat,and uber-practice every possible adverse situation before heading out? Maybe he was doing the very best he could with his medical condition--there seem to be a lot of factors about the whole incident that are pretty ill-defined; and some judgment calls that mattered a lot, but were maybe not the best ones.

But it's pretty hard to say, without being out there, and part of the event, and the conditions.

And, not everyone who sails is likely to be the ultimate sailor. And, not every one is an idiot for not sailing perfectly 100% of the time either.
Perhaps but we've piled on before. For me its the fact that he was headed "around the world" and made it less than 50 miles. That indicates pretty bad preparation but that is not my beef with the guy. The boat is stern down, it probably sank a short time later and he is attempting to sue his rescuers for arguably 10 times the value of the boat. How about, "jeez look at my boat sinking. What was I thinking. I learned a lot about saililng around the world unprepared. Thanks for saving my life. I'll try again in the future when I have a better idea of what it takes."

@Hogan

- legally blind is not blind. I love the states. If I fill out the right forms I could be legally obese and get a front row parking sticker at Walmart and ride around in an electric shopping cart to by my ho-hos...
- please send me your class schedule by pm so I can send my son in another direction - LOL
- And technically pops didn't declare mayday. He called a bud and the bud called the CG.

Rats eating liver. Hmmmm...
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Old 11-12-2011, 17:16   #377
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Ahoy Hogan,
Your apparent wind measurements came out to a 10 per cent difference between AW and TW at 25kts @ 115 apparent and 5kts boat speed.
The half-blind guy is just one of many disabled sailors, who need some consideration on behalf of designers, etc. Even Tristan Jones.
When I leave the dock alone, I know I'm gambling with a single outboard engine, a large boat with lots of lines, 1200 ft of sail, and not much room until I get out to sea. The half-blind guy is gambling too.
He may have met his match with that flooding aft. I'd like to know more about his thought process, because I've gotten into my own fair amount of jams with the idea that I can get out of it and can't.
If he had worked his way up, and thought he knew his boat well, it must have been a real rude awakening when it started to sink, especially with another gale on the way. Unfortunately when we do our trials it is with local sailing first, then longer trips, then voyages. Probably he needed to more local sailing in bad conditions, which you, Hogan, are doing. It's better to have something break when you're near help and familiar waters. It might be more embarrassing, though.
He could have subscribed to this forum and learned a lot before he went out alone into a forecast gale. Actually a gale warning can be beneficial if the winds push you toward your destination. On a smaller boat, a gale can be tiring, also the thought process during a storm deteriorates, so any preparations and preplanning will pay off when you're hanging on and the brainwaves are numb. It looks like his boat broke and he wasn't able to effectively deal with it. CG has training to recognize things like hypothermic symptoms and fatigue symptoms.
So there we are, offshore in a sinking boat that we've put our whole future and past into. The CG takes us off and won't let us back on. The dream is gone and we have to wake up.
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Old 11-12-2011, 17:22   #378
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post

(...) broad reach (...) the faster you sail, the further aft the apparent wind moves (...)
Sure.

b.
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Old 11-12-2011, 17:55   #379
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I made post #13 on this thread, and haven't looked at it since. Have I missed anything.
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Old 11-12-2011, 17:57   #380
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I made post #13 on this thread, and haven't looked at it since. Have I missed anything.
Just read post #1 about ten times and you'll be up to speed...
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Old 11-12-2011, 18:09   #381
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I'm amazed at how many "Bill Hogans" there are on Face Book.

But I'm sure Hogan won't mind the members here getting to know him a bit better.

Bill Hogan | Facebook
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Old 11-12-2011, 18:16   #382
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Clearly somone has been busy with photoshop - LOL...
Extremely busy. 6 more pictures of Cal 40s in the top 5 rows in the link below surfing. Some of different Cal 40s, and some of them the same boat from different angles.

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Old 12-12-2011, 03:10   #383
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Originally Posted by limejucer View Post
Hogan please delete this phrase. it offends me
Post-em or STFU about what a wuss Hogan is...

I seem to have gone to a different sailing school to you.
We use the same words but the meaning is different.
Richard Feyniman used his own math at first but soon decided to join the others as that way comunication is less fraught.
Perhaps when we agree on points of sail we can talk productivley.

Regards and keep hard bit down and floppy bits up
And dear Limejuicer: Are you aware that your name is derived from an ethnic slur against Lord Nelson, and is an affront to tripe eating, scurvey plauged British citizens with bad teeth everywhere?

I'm descended from Limey stock, and just because my ancestors were too stupid to pipe orange juice instead of lime juice and grog through thier ships water systems to ward of scurvey and mutiny, despite 150 years of evidence that lime juice is an ineffective treatment for mutiny, doesn't make it OK to make fun of them!

Steriotypes hurt. Please change your name to....

"Swabby"

Ok, you know what?

If the true wind is aft of the beam, you are sailing downwind, correct?

A close reach has the true wind forward of the beam.

A beam reach has it dead abeam

...and I learned that a broad reach has the true wind aft of the beam, but forward of a run, which to me is defined as anytime the jib is so blanketed by the main, it wants to collapse and wing to windward, while the main threatens to gybe, which, come to think of it, does kinda argue for the whole apparent wind thing moving forward deal....

So, to continue my propeller beanie thought experiment, if the wind is blowing from behind me at 10 knots, and I snort an eightball of Peruvian marching powder, motivating my boney old legs to propell my skinny little behind, however briefly, to 15 knots, the apparent wind will be hitting me in the face, even though the true wind is 180 degrees aft of it, so yea, I guess at some point it moves forward, and to do that, it must start sneaking around towards zero degrees pretty early, so I was wrong.

So was Einstien about the Cosmological constant BTW.

I've got my Assem arriving next week.

25 knots?

Uh, it was my most expensive sail - why would I want to blow it out?

If I decide broaching drills are in order, I'll keep the full main up, sheet it flat, and fly my 140 on a run off to starbord.

In a "Gale"

Then, when she starts surfing, I'll put the helm down HARD to starboard.

Actually, the helm will put itself down hard, Nomad will broach-to, put her starboard spreader in the water, lose steerage, and remain on her side until I dump both sheets.

If I time it just right on a big enough wave, maybe I can do a "rolling" drill, and if I'm really lucky, that will be followed by a "Cut away the mast before I holes and sinks my boat" drill which, if successful will be followed by a "Jurry rig a new mast from your spare tiller and boathook" drill.

Naw....I'll take a pass on that. Let the racers dismast themselves and blow-out thier sails.

I'm afraid of big sails on little boats alone at sea in gales.
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:07   #384
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
...and I learned that a broad reach has the true wind aft of the beam, but forward of a run, which to me is defined as anytime the jib is so blanketed by the main, it wants to collapse and wing to windward, while the main threatens to gybe, which, come to think of it, does kinda argue for the whole apparent wind thing moving forward deal....

So, to continue my propeller beanie thought experiment, if the wind is blowing from behind me at 10 knots, and I snort an eightball of Peruvian marching powder, motivating my boney old legs to propell my skinny little behind, however briefly, to 15 knots, the apparent wind will be hitting me in the face, even though the true wind is 180 degrees aft of it, so yea, I guess at some point it moves forward, and to do that, it must start sneaking around towards zero degrees pretty early, so I was wrong...............
Well, it is said that it takes a big man to admit he is wrong so here's to Hoges
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Ok, you know what?

If the true wind is aft of the beam, you are sailing downwind, correct?

A close reach has the true wind forward of the beam.

A beam reach has it dead abeam
Now I may be wrong but I always understood it was when the apparent wind was etc etc rather that the true wind. Someone please correct me if I have this a^*~about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
I'm afraid of big sails on little boats alone at sea in gales.
Me too and FWIW, Gales start around 35 knots (true) in my book. YMMV.
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:31   #385
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan, you'd be surprised how fast a well designed boat will stand back up. I had my Assym up and socked but the douse line got away from where ever I had it cinched off at and was out of reach when we got slammed by a 40-50 knot gust front. The chute popped open with a resounding WHUMPF! and over we went with both sticks in the water. After about 20 seconds, she stood back up and hauled butt to windward, collapsing the chute. As she started to fall back off and still unable to reach that damned line, I blew the halyard and went shrimping. We sailed home before the gale under staysail alone at 8 knots with six feet of kelp in the port spreader. Don't ask me why I had the chute aloft with a very evident cold front closing in....
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:48   #386
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieCobra View Post
Hogan, you'd be surprised how fast a well designed boat will stand back up. I had my Assym up and socked but the douse line got away from where ever I had it cinched off at and was out of reach when we got slammed by a 40-50 knot gust front. The chute popped open with a resounding WHUMPF! and over we went with both sticks in the water. After about 20 seconds, she stood back up and hauled butt to windward, collapsing the chute. As she started to fall back off and still unable to reach that damned line, I blew the halyard and went shrimping. We sailed home before the gale under staysail alone at 8 knots with six feet of kelp in the port spreader. Don't ask me why I had the chute aloft with a very evident cold front closing in....
What a sight to see. I can picture the kelp in the spreader.

It would have been a hoot.

I've had 3' of gaff in the water and sheet blocks 'smokin' as the sheets were let out. Weather helm on an old 'cods head, mackeral tail' design. Designed to forgive us a bit.
http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/v...a/P4100336.jpg

thanks Charlie.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:43   #387
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Hogan, you'd be surprised how fast a well designed boat will stand back up. I had my Assym up and socked but the douse line got away from where ever I had it cinched off at and was out of reach when we got slammed by a 40-50 knot gust front. The chute popped open with a resounding WHUMPF! and over we went with both sticks in the water. After about 20 seconds, she stood back up and hauled butt to windward, collapsing the chute. As she started to fall back off and still unable to reach that damned line, I blew the halyard and went shrimping. We sailed home before the gale under staysail alone at 8 knots with six feet of kelp in the port spreader. Don't ask me why I had the chute aloft with a very evident cold front closing in....
Part of our sailing arrea is right under the approach path to Changi Airport. It is very common to see wingtip vortices on the water. We can pretty well predict where they will hit the water.

We weren't paying attention, someone said, heads up! We had 5 seconds notice, blew sheets and got knock flat. We popped up in 3-4 seconds. Spilled 4 perfectly good beers...

To an earlier comment anout wrapping a furling genny around the forestay - did it. Messy and I could not unwrap it or lower it without gybing the boat to unwrap it. I'd blame it on the guy driving but my boat, my bad...
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:51   #388
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan

STFU this is what I find offensive. unless it actualy means Sweeties and Toffees For U.
I apologise it there is an inoffensive meaning to your post if so please explain what it is?

And i am a Limejuicer a Scottish one. That is the name my boat had when i got it.

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Old 12-12-2011, 14:07   #389
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Look guys, all kidding aside, I appreciate being straightened out when I'm wrong, and I make errors and have misconceptions about many things, so thanks of the AW thing - I learned to sail in dinghys, and that's all seat-of the pants sailing, no instruments, and little time to study the finer points of apparent vs true wind angles - I was taught to watch and read the wind on the water to get its direction, then to whatch the luff of the jib for helming and trim.

No tell tales on the shrouds of my laser, because well, no shrouds.

Old habits die hard, but hey, they can be useful too:

One memorable evening, just as the sun was setting off MDR (I like to sail at night) the wind started dying and shifting around. I was under full canvas - main and 110 jib

Something just didnt feel right, so I grabbed the mainsheet held it, and continued sailing along in perhaps 8 knots of breeze that was alternately backing and veering 90 degrees or so.

It was a clear evening.

Then suddenly, it hit me, dead abeam - a HUGE gust ( I have no idea how strong) that would have absolutely flattened Nomad - kelp in the spreaders style - except that when it hit, I immediately sprung the mainsheet, avoiding a severe knockdown.

After that, the wind blew steady from the SE at 15 knots, and it was no problem - but in shifting from the West to southeast there must have been a turbulent boundry - This is not infrequent though usually its not so sudden or intense around here. I call them "dry squalls" because they happen without rain, and unless you know what to look for, you'll get surprized. A few years ago, the Wed. night race fleet was hit by one of these dry "microbusts", and several spinnakers were blown-out, and a couple of boats dismasted.

Anyone who things coastal sailing in Santa Monica Bay is easy is right: Its deceptively easy, most of the time, lulling many into complacency.

Then Nature asserts her authority, and reminds us who's in charge.

That's the humility you speak of with experienced sailors, and its born of hard won respect for the elements.

BTW, Here is the CBS Goodmorning America interview with our lubberly blind sailor:

Favorite quote:

"If I know if I can walk across a busy street out street here, I can sail this boat out here in the ocean"

Uh, yea....right.

Then read the comments, one from a dockmate who questions his sailing ability, and says he had developed a reputation as a "zen leech" and freeloader around the marina.

Please don't confuse my attempts at satire and humor here online with an overall attitude of clueless hubris when it comes to the seriousness of dealing with the sea. Anyone who's sailed with me knows I take it very seriously, and while I ocassionally push the boat's limits, I do so in a gradual measured way, to find out where her boundries lie for future refference.

My initial plan was to spend a summer cruising the Northern Channel Islands, including San Miguel, after spending a couple of weeks anchored at Cojo playing hide and seek with the 35 knot summer winds and big seas off of Point Conception the "Cape Horn of the North Pacific" probing the limits of my ship and building my heavy weather sailing skills and tactics.

Then I realized I was just punishing myself and my ship needlessly, and courting disaster with such a plan.

It would make sense if I had several Flicka's, and was planning a Southern Ocean great cape circumnavigation aboard a small boat.

I'm not.

I'm not planning a circumnavigation. No way. Not yet. I still have too much to learn, and Nomad is probably not the right boat to do it in.

We'll see.

First, I'm going to attempt to day-sail her to La Paz and spend the winter and spring relaxing and cruising the Sea of Cortez.

And this is what I dont understand understand about the glory seekers.

What's your hurry?

As long as I'm out on the water life is good, and I'm happy. Things make sense to me outside, surrounded by nature - I find it profoundly beautiful and spiritually uplifting, even at its worst.

Even beating to weather - though I much preffer reaching before the wind with a following sea.

To me, going out on the ocean is like going to church. It is a form a prayer, and I've experienced what I can only describe as "divine revelations" through it.

IC Engines spoil the essence of that experience for me. They are an affront to nature, rather than holy communion with her.

And they are not "neccesary" if you are willing to sacrafice speed, convience, and comfort.

Safety is a wash from the evidence I've seen.

Maybe that engine will save your ship, maybe its raw water through hull will electrolize at the dock and sink her.

We all have to make the right trade offs for our ships and our goals.

Then, blind lubberly sailors not withstanding, we must fully, personally accept the consequences of those descisions.

@ Limejuicer: STFU means just what you think, and I'll make a deal with you: Post a video of yourself sailing in what you consider gale force conditions, and I'll STFU and delete the acronym.

Think of it as a challenge - its easy to critisize the exploits of others from an armchair, its harder to head out on the sea and document and publish your own exploits for public scrutiny and comment.

I think its a fair challenge, and its specifically addressed to those calling me a liar - which I find offensive.

How about it?
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Old 12-12-2011, 14:14   #390
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Wow some of you guys really must have a lot of spare time on your hands to keep this thread going. Gonna have to unsubscribe from this one I think.
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