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Old 10-12-2011, 18:42   #361
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Originally Posted by Hogan

... though if it were THAT dangerous, one has to ask why thier were 8 guys in the RIB to rescue one old, blind, retarded guy....

Seems a pilot, a look-out, and a rescue swimmer could have subdued him and his sinking boat fairly easily, but hey, I wasn't there, and maybe he was making terrorist threats or something...

=)
those old blind retarded guys can fight like wildcats!

I am seriously gonna start a folder of Hoganisms. We could give an annual award for the best Hoganism called the hoagie with a suitable gift certificate at subway...

This one made me spit coffee on my ipad...

I think you're are a bit nuts and with more than a little trepidation say it would be fun and interesting to sail with you. Especially in a "gale"

BTW - who says our little heavy 25 footers can't exceed hull speed. An asym on a prod is on my wish list... Oh and he's in a "gale" and solo. Try that in a 40 footer - LOL
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Old 10-12-2011, 19:06   #362
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Ahoy Hogan,
First thanks for the info about the deck scuppers. Very important in an offshore boat to reduce the recess of the cockpit, or maybe the cockpit footwell. Also any access to lockers from the cockpit, cockpit seats, should not lead below to the engine or bilges. A lot of boats need reworking to make sure that a boarding sea won't find it's way below.
Secondly I think you made a slight mistype. Downwind, the SOG vector or more accurately the speed over water vector, should be subtracted, vectorily, from the apparent wind vector, to get the true wind.
The big difference between small keel boats and large multihull boats is not at the lower wind speeds. On a windward course, the small hull has an appreciable VMG. Because hull speed is a function of sq rt of waterline length, you have to go big to get any advantage, in light winds. A small boat can track along with a good VMG and even hold on in bad weather, depending on the design.
In higher wind speeds, the difference is even less going to windward, but off the wind, the multihull will run off big numbers.
You should get a chance to sail on a multihull in brisk conditions with an experienced captain.
You are very accurately and methodically sorting out your boat for offshore work. The Flicka has a reputation of seaworthiness.
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Old 10-12-2011, 19:07   #363
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan your words

Note the white water rafting footage off Catalina's West end. My annemometer recorded 25 knot gusts, and I was broad reaching at 5 knots, so that's 30 knots true right? Approaching gale force - but the seas dont look too bad, right? Choppy, some white-caps, but not bad....
Broad reaching is not down wind. Gust speed not sustained.

Uh, no, downwind your velocity is added to the apparent wind speed to get the true wind speed, and assuming a 135 degree true wind, the aparently wind will more likely be at around 150 or greater, meaning, yea, I get to add my SOG to the apparent, niether of which are ever constant, so it's all an average.

BTW "Sustained" means a 10 minute average. Sailors are concerned (or should be) with peak wind speeds.

Perhaps this is the source of the "Exaggeration" charges against me here
Exaggeration is by who?
I would say subtract to give 20 knots and that is gust. sustained less give it the 14% estimate and you drop to well under 20Kns.
A fresh breeze not strong breeze
A gale is 34 knts minimum sustained at least 14knts more than 20.
Monohulls reef for sustained multyhull reef for gusts.
I have been out in F8 and 20ft waves nothing like your pics

If you resist the need to make super long posts then the content is clearer.





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Old 10-12-2011, 19:32   #364
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
(...) assuming a 135 degree true wind, the aparently wind will more likely be at around 150 or greater, (...)
That was a long post, Hogan, but it apparently started on the wrong foot ...

Or was the boat indeed sailing BACKWARDS?

Cheers,
b.
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Old 10-12-2011, 19:58   #365
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pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan... you are an absolute hoot...
One thing I do know is folk who have seen sea's are a lot more humble than you...
But.... I do look forward to your posts... even if its just for a break from a lot o dorks waffling on about the size of drain holes...
to me its simple... over my boots... bigger hole...
But all this 3" no... 4"... I got away with 2.5" crap....
Know where your coming from re.... boring old b^*$t$rds...
Go Sailing... get a life...
PS... been on the VINO.... look out Frank Z...
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Old 10-12-2011, 20:24   #366
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Uh, no, downwind your velocity is added to the apparent wind speed to get the true wind speed, and assuming a 135 degree true wind, the aparently wind will more likely be at around 150 or greater, meaning, yea, I get to add my SOG to the apparent, niether of which are ever constant, so it's all an average.

BTW "Sustained" means a 10 minute average. Sailors are concerned (or should be) with peak wind speeds.

Perhaps this is the source of the "Exaggeration" charges against me here:

=)
Hogan, you might want to rethink your apparent(ly) vs true wind direction argument. If the boat is moving forward, the apparent wind will always be at a smaller angle than the true wind, not the reverse as you claim.

And to say that you are sailing in a gale because the apparent wind is greater than 30 kts in gusts is really silly.

Mate, many of the points that you make are reasonable. IF you didn't blow your cover by gross exaggerations and outright mistakes you would come across a lot better.

Oh... as to lives lost in the '98 Hobart race: the greatest number of victims were from the Winston Churchill... a venerable old boat that fails to meet your description of a modern race boat in any way.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 10-12-2011, 20:34   #367
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pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hey Jim... all good..
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Old 10-12-2011, 22:30   #368
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
those old blind retarded guys can fight like wildcats!

I am seriously gonna start a folder of Hoganisms. We could give an annual award for the best Hoganism called the hoagie with a suitable gift certificate at subway...

This one made me spit coffee on my ipad...

I think you're are a bit nuts and with more than a little trepidation say it would be fun and interesting to sail with you. Especially in a "gale"

BTW - who says our little heavy 25 footers can't exceed hull speed. An asym on a prod is on my wish list... Oh and he's in a "gale" and solo. Try that in a 40 footer - LOL

Stan Honey single handing Cal 40 under Golden Gate on the way to Hawaii
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The Cal 34 I sailed on would only hit 10 knots surfing, then it would drag half the ocean up behind you. On my Cal 40 I haven't sailed with a crew that I would want to sail in more than 15 knots with a chute up, and I'm not Stan Honey, I have no interest in singlehanding in 25 knots with my chute up.

John
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:01   #369
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Oops! Yes, speed vector subtracted from true wind to get apparent. My BF.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:22   #370
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Regarding the unfortunate San Diego Flicka incident, this is the first time i've read so much on this forum of people piling on top of a really bad sailing happenstance--usually there's a lot more sympathy no matter the situation. Or, in Hogan's case is it because it involved a Flicka? Causing a bit of a bad name for it? Just heap it on the guy because he didn't overanalyze every sailing situation, every facet of possible problems with the boat,and uber-practice every possible adverse situation before heading out? Maybe he was doing the very best he could with his medical condition--there seem to be a lot of factors about the whole incident that are pretty ill-defined; and some judgment calls that mattered a lot, but were maybe not the best ones.

But it's pretty hard to say, without being out there, and part of the event, and the conditions.

And, not everyone who sails is likely to be the ultimate sailor. And, not every one is an idiot for not sailing perfectly 100% of the time either.
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Old 11-12-2011, 15:19   #371
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Glad to see you guys are comming around to my special way of thinking!

=)

I'm gonna stop saying "gale" from now on. Rather, I'll just say 'strong conditions' and let people decide for themselves how fast they think the wind was blowing - but I do have one last question -

WHERE ARE ALL YOUR GALE SAILING VIDEOS, HATERS?

Post-em or STFU about what a wuss Hogan is...

A broad reach is a downwind point of sail, and the faster you sail, the further aft the apparent wind moves when sailing downwind. If I'm running down the street at 10 knots (hey - I have skinny legs, remember?) and the wind is blowing at 10 knots, how much wind does the propeller on my beanie sense Einstien????

Right.

0 knots.

Subtract your velocity from the true wind when going with it, add your velocity when going against it, and its a wash when dead-abeam.

(anyone who's ever done any long distance cycling - like me! - becomes acutely aware of this phenomenon, especially after pedalling all morining into a stiff breeze riding 40 miles up PCH dressed like a cross between Dennis Rodman and Rue Paul in skin-tight dayglo spandex atop a $5000 carbon fiber bike that rides like a jackhammer, and has the wind REVERSE right when I realized "wait a minute - I still have to ride HOME" then bashed to windward for another 4 hours making less than 10mph becuase now my muscle glycogen is GONE and you can no longer feel your penis or testicals due to the fact your seat is ALSO CARBON FIBER since it saved 600milligrams over that plush gel seat you were looking at

....realizes the truth of this.)

My students think I'm nuts too btw, and if anyone thinks I'm crude and innapropriate here....well, lets just say that when I have a LIVE captive audience, I'm much, much, MUCH worse.

God bless teacher's unions tenure, and the the Academic Freedom they protect, at least at the College level in America - yes Haters, I am your worst nightmare: I teach at both public and private colleges, and I teach your children to question everything, and think for themselves - especially regarding sex, politics, religion, and the wisdom of allowing greedy, freeloading, senile, fame seeking retards to leave port on a round-the-world journey aboard a small boat that's demanding to sail well, even if you are young, shy, fit, and have a strong work ethic.

@Seahag:

Look - in all honesty, I feel bad for the guy on some level, his mental and character deficiencies aside, which IMO are his biggest handicaps.

My Good Grandmother, the only member of my family who ever gave a damn about me, the one who gave me the tiller in Marblehead Harbor as a child, the one who flew me out to Boston when I was 14 and enrolled me in the childrens sailing Camp on Cat Island for two weeks, the one who raced her (engineless) Corinthian 19 until well into her 80ies, only stopping when she fell and broke her wrist jumping from her boat into the launch....

Was also progressively blinded in her last decades by narrow angle Glaucoma.

- just like O'l One Eyed Willie.

You know what the difference between her and that twit is?

She was a real, life long sailor - a racing and offshore sailor, who taught several generations of New England children how to sail in cat rigged dinghies. Who raced "frostbite" for decades. Who had the experince and good sense to hang up her foulies after she broke her wrist jumping from that boat.

And though it broke her heart, she sold her boat, and as her health declined, she moved inland, away from her beloved Marblehead harbor and the home she'd lived in on its shores, to Sommerville Mass, a landlocked suburb of Boston, with my Aunt and Uncle, where she eventually passed away at age 98.

But she kept on sailing - crewing as often as she could, and always had ride aboard a someones race boat in the summer if she desired.

Eventually, the light hurt her eyes so much she even gave that up - and spent her last years holed up in her darkened appartment listening to Red Sox games, and badgering me about "Do you have a boat yet, Billy?" every time we spoke - which was often.

She never complained about her handicap, and never sought sympathy. She just got on with things as best she could.

I'm not one to crush the dreams of anyone, no matter how unrealistic I might think they are. Dreams and goals are important, spiritualy essential things, and I dont have a crystal ball:

- I cant say if someone will succeed or fail at a given endeavor.

But I do demand, as proof of character, accepting responsibility for one's actions, and not blaming other people for your own miscalculations, mistakes, failures, or plain bad luck.

So I have some deep ethical problems with this guy, becuase of his actions, not because of his goal of sailing around the world blind, aboard a small boat.

1) He set off into a forecast with two powerful early season Pacific cold fronts that were predicted a week ahead of time. I was tracking those storms myself. These fronts originated in the Gulf of Alaska, and were thus very cold, sweeping 1500 miles across the north pacific, with (dare I say it?) gale force winds, from the southeast on thier leading edges, and northwest on thier tails (its the northwesterlies after an eastern Pacific front passes that are the most dangerous - resulting in colliding waves and confused seas, especially offshore, where this guy headed.

The most basic West coast cruising guides ALL WARN OF THIS and not to screw around with Pacific storms - you stay in port if at all possible, and wait for a day or so after it passes, watching out for the Northeasterly Santa Ana gales that often follow the Northwesterly gales.

Therefore, he demonstrated supremely poor judgement by leaving port.

2) He set off solo. This is supremely dangerous for a healthy, able bodied sailor - like 10x the danger of having just one other person aboard. MOB, watchkeeping, companionship, and the pysical assistance a second person can render in an emergency are an invaluble safety net (not your engine, lol) ....and for whatever reason, he chose to forgo this. To make matters worse, he was blind.

How exactly does a blind sailor keep watch? - Watchkeeping is required by maritime law at all times - and with good reason.

Therefore, his voyage was "manifestly unsafe" the moment he left the dock.

The USCG should have taken him off his ship when he cast off, impounded that pretty little boat, and demanded he at least have two able bodied, sighted crew to stand watch for him.

Does anyone think that if this idiot had climbed into a private plane - in bad weather no less- and attempted to circumnavigate, solo - anyone would have sympathy for him?

No - he'd be seen as a lunatic and a menace.

The physical demands, skills, and logistics of a small plane circumnavigation are a walk in the park compared to a small boat circumnavigation. He would have been arrested on the spot had he attempted such a stupid thing - and there are a lot fewer things to hit up in the sky than out at sea.

3) He made the talk show circuit rounds, sought sponship, and generally promoted his plans seeking a free ride by exploiting on the sympathy and good will of others based on his handicap.

Rather than work hard, save his money, equip his boat himself, attempt to sail around the world blind and alone like a fool, and THEN write a book about it, (if he survived) and make the talk show rounds, he did it all a-priori.

Therefore, his motivation was corrupt.

4) He declaired an "emergency" while at sea.

This is the same as shouting "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" into a radio or activating an EPIRB. Do this solo, and you better be prepared to abandon ship, becuase you are stating that your life is in immediate danger, and that means ALL SHIPS able too render aid without endagering thier vessels, must, by law, go to your aid.

And they will - its the code of the sea, and its a beautiful thing.

There was a turning point for me last summer when I realized this after I was motor sailing alone off the west end of Catalina Island, which is exposed to the entire Western Pacific and is steep-to, with few safe refuges, in light air. It was very rolly, and Nomad was doing her usual flopping about thing in a big pacific swell that was bouncing and refracting off the clifs, tossing us around a little. Suddenly my VHF came to life, and someone, I dont know who, hailed me, and wanted to know if I was OK. It told them yes, and continued on my way - humbled and deeply greatful - with a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye, both of which return anytime I think about it.

I thought I was all alone, but someone - a perfect stranger - was watching me, was concerned, and was ready to render aid.

This guy is suing his rescuers.

Therefore, he is scum in my book - a bilge rat, unworthy of the sea, who has refused to accept personal responsibility for his (stupid) actions, demanding someone else pay the for his own foolishness.

And still:

If he broadcast a MAYDAY tomorrow, I - and any sailor worth the name - would go to his aid, no questions asked, no matter how stupid he'd been, no matter how corrupt, no matter how niave, because there is a sacred brotherhood out there -

Unlike on land, where the rats will eat your liver the moment you fall.

So this is why I mock him.

His blindness is besides the point.

He is an affront to everything I hold sacred, and its people like him and the values they hold I'm trying to espcape when I put to sea.
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Old 11-12-2011, 15:37   #372
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan please delete this phrase. it offends me
Post-em or STFU about what a wuss Hogan is...

I seem to have gone to a different sailing school to you.
We use the same words but the meaning is different.
Richard Feyniman used his own math at first but soon decided to join the others as that way comunication is less fraught.
Perhaps when we agree on points of sail we can talk productivley.

Regards and keep hard bit down and floppy bits up
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Old 11-12-2011, 15:39   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal40john

Stan Honey single handing Cal 40 under Golden Gate on the way to Hawaii
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Another Cal 40 finishing Transpac, but fully crewed.
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The Cal 34 I sailed on would only hit 10 knots surfing, then it would drag half the ocean up behind you. On my Cal 40 I haven't sailed with a crew that I would want to sail in more than 15 knots with a chute up, and I'm not Stan Honey, I have no interest in singlehanding in 25 knots with my chute up.

John
Clearly somone has been busy with photoshop - LOL...
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Old 11-12-2011, 15:48   #374
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

quote:
"A broad reach is a downwind point of sail, and the faster you sail, the further aft the apparent wind moves when sailing downwind. If I'm running down the street at 10 knots (hey - I have skinny legs, remember?) and the wind is blowing at 10 knots, how much wind does the propeller on my beanie sense Einstien????"
end quote

Hogan, I really hope that your architectural designs were better than your sailing knowledge.

Your above statement is simply wrong. If you are moving forward, the faster you go the farther ahead the apparent wind angle goes whether one is sailing up or down wind.

signed, Einstein (aka Jim)
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Old 11-12-2011, 15:48   #375
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Now that that's solved, we're clawing away from a waterfall against 30 kts of wind and 8 kts of current when a manatee riding on the bow wave snags our Chinese Rocna and the shock dislodges the engine cover and knocks our deep-fry turkey oil onto the alternator belt and the manifold, and which blue water boat would best handle this situation?
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