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Old 08-12-2011, 01:15   #301
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, but -- he might really be better off -- and all of us might really be better off -- anchored stern-to. He's been reading the Jordan website which has a lot of material on this subject, and which recommends stern-to anchoring in storms. I happen to think that it is right. No boat lies happily bow-to. That's because the center of pressure of any sailboat is ahead of the keel, making bow-to anchoring inherently unstable. And it's the sheering back and forth which saws through anchor rodes in hurricanes. If I had to ride out a hurricane at anchor in my boat, I would anchor stern-to. You don't care so much about getting pooped, if your hatches are closed.

Here's the article Hogan is paraphrasing: http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pd...ordan52006.pdf
Yes - and Jordan was and is ridiculed for this theory.

I don't accept anything on faith. I'm an empiricist, and I need evidence.

Thus, my satire.



Softheaded appeals to tradition and marketing don't impress me:

Repeatable evidence and facts do.

Jordan formed his theories based on science and physics after learning of the Fasnet disaster (don't get me started on THAT).

He decided to start from scratch and after careful study, figured out some pretty obvious things -like that modern sloop rigged sailboats have most of their windage forward -and as an aeronautical engineer recognized that forward windage tends to create a moment couple that rotates a boat about its hydrodynamic center.

This means that to increase stability, the hydrodynamic center must move AFT as conditions worsen, not forward, hence his drogue is deployed off the STERN not the bow.

His drogue design is solid in several other respects:

In architecture, we call it "structural redundancy" - and his series drouge has it in spades. If one drouglet fails, there are plenty of others to take up the slack - dozens and dozens of little cones move the center of hydrodynamic effort aft, rather than a single spare tire or traditional drouge that surfaces exactly when you most need it submerged to prevent a pichpole or broach -

...and it gets better:

That series drogue loads up PROGRESSIVELY rather than all at once like a paranchor, reducing dynamic ("snatch") loads on the boat, its hardware, and its crew.

....and these drogues are much shorter than a para-anchor rode, less complex, and easier to deploy.

Now any sailor who pays attention will notice that his boat is more stable under some sail configurations than others.

Each boat design is different however, at least broadly, between classes of boats:

Yawls handle differently than sloops.

Sloops handle differently than schooners.

Square riggers....

Cats

Lanteens

etc....

Add to this the fact that modern racing rule influenced boats have deep, efficient keels and balanced rudders (to reduce wetted area), and fat aft sections, copius freeboard, flat bottoms and roller furling headsails, (to create spacious interiors, comfort, and ease of handling (in moderate conditions) for consumers seeking space and comfort at anchor or while costal cruising)

Consider that all of these characteristics of the modern "racer cruiser" were developed for reasons other than "seaworthiness", and the picture becomes quite complex and ominous:

Does that furled headsail's windage offset that fat-assed aft "stateroom" windage and high freeboard?

Does the narrow plumb bow, fine entry, and flat sheer make it's bow dive under waves when overpressed upwind?

(an extreme example of this trend are the reverse bows of the AC cats, which are so famously prone to pitch-polling)

How does that huge dodger effect its areodynamics?

The weather cloths?

The radar arch?

The Bimini?

The Dink on the davits?

How do those jerry jugs you had to stow on deck because of the lack of stowage below effect its ultimate stability and windage profile?

What if you claw down that roller furrling headsail and stow it below?

What about that tiny fin keel and rudder, who's center of lateral hydrodynamic resistance wants to be in the exact OPPOSITE place as the lateral AERODYNAMIC center of resistance - at least for maximum stability?

Remember:

The flow of water that the keel "sees" is opposite to the airflow you sense in the cockpit when headed downwind, therefore a fat aft keel and barn-door rudder with a forward windage profile will result in a much more directionally stable boat than a boat with a spindley fin keel located amidships and deep tiny, weak-assed, balanced spade rudder forward of the transom, both of which will be stalled if hove-to or lying to a sea anchor.

This is the modern "Racer Cruiser" in your nutsack, and it is inherently unstable - because that instability results in a boat that can tack faster, and maneuver more quickly around bouys and other boats when racing.

This boat has less drag, and is faster, all things being equal (especially length) than a traditional boat, but it requires constant attention at the helm to prevent broaching downwind - even in moderate conditions.

It pounds in a seaway upwind, and is ill mannered and skittish downwind. It will not heave-to, and as conditions worsen, it comes unglued, inspiring terror rather than the confidence a traditional boat inspires.

No wonder you want a powerful engine - its your only hope of making it home alive if you are shorthanded, underequipped, or underskilled in such a boat in challenging conditions - something that is not the case in the offshore races where such boats were developed, like the Fasnet and Sydney / Hobart - Yet to this day, experienced professional offshore racing sailors are lost in such boats pushing the envelope of design and common sense.

And this same boat lulls its amateur skipper into complacency with its initial form stiffness and its "powerful, reliable inboard diesel".

But when things get ugly, this quick, spacious, lightly built thoroughbred shows its vices - often brutally.

Now a dowdy, heavily built old boat like a Flicka 20 or a Westsail 32 might not tack quickly or point to 35 degrees apparent around the bouys. They accellerate slowly, have short, low aspect, single spreader rigs.

They are under canvassed by racing boat standards.

Such boats - especially the Flicka - are initially more tender, and require a high angle of heel for maximum upwind effciency.

They have tight asses, tight interiors, soft chines, round, deep bilges, long keels, huge, barn-door rudders, and bowsprits that place most of their windage forward and as much as possible of their underwater profiles aft:

http://images.bluewaterboats.org/wes...il32-lines.gif

.....and this results in a boat that will take care of herself and her crew in pretty much anything, including a 100 year North Atlantic storm:



Now for some reason, (crew panic from what I gather) the skipper of the Satori is making a half-hearted attempt to beat to windward under storm jib, rather than running off.

And for the love of god, its working!

In winds that are a steady 70 MPH, gusting to 90mph

....in the infamous "Perfect Storm"

( I know, I'm exaggerating - those seas are 8 foot at most, and the winds not even 30 knots - why just look at the surface of the water )

....and while this does not look like an especially pleasant experience for her crew, the Satori herself looks to me like she is doing just fine -

The USCG and its rescue boat on the other-hand, look like THEY are the ones in trouble....

The Flicka 20, and dozens of older, out of fashion boats share the exact same design and heritage as the Westsail -

They were developed through hundreds of years of trail and error by Atlantic and North Sea fishermen and pilots who HAD to be out on the ocean every day, year round, in the worst weather, year after year, to feed trier families.

The lives of of these men were on the line, not their BVI vacations.

Thousands died refining the design of the traditional heavy displacement sailing work-boat, and I'd sooner trust my life to it than some obnoxious chunk of smelly rattling inboard iron wedged under the companionably steps of a boat that looks like a pair of Gucci sunglasses.

The history of the heavy displacement workboat is empiricism at its most poignant.

But we arrogant, vain, competitive modern sailors know better than those sailors or yore, don't we?

Mankind has conquered the forces of nature remember?



...and the Sartori?

After her skipper was FORCED by the USCG to abandon his sound vessel, ("foundering" my ass....) she sailed herself up on a North Carolina beach -intact, with loose gear still on deck - and was re-floated without incident.

As of 2000, she was still afloat:

Westsail Owners Association - Satori - Perfect Storm the whole story

So go ahead and question tradition - but learn it's lessons first:

The Satori's skipper never resorted to using her engine - he sailed her - like a proper seaman - while the USCG nearly lost its motorized rescue boat and her crew attempting to "rescue" him.

The USCGs rescue personnel had to be rescued by thier own helicopter - after failing to rescue the crew of the Satori - so you engine fanatics might want to carry a spare helicopter and USCG rescue swimmer with you, along with that spare impeller.

These are sailboats - learn how to sail them, and for the love of god, be careful about the situations you place yourself in.

Look at those conditions, and tell me how much good Satori's "powerful, reliable diesel engine" would have done.

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Old 08-12-2011, 05:04   #302
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Well, there's a lot of discussion of these theories in the archives -- do a search and have a browse.

Every boat has her own center of pressure, but I've never been on or heard about a sailboat of any size which did not weather-cock, trying to put her bow away from the wind -- that is, which had a center of pressure behind the keel with the sails down. That fact is behind the technique of backing into tight situations when the wind is up, rather than going forward -- something you need to know to get your Yachtmaster qualification over here. Trying to maneuver forward in close quarters with the wind up may get your bow blown off and lead to loss of control.

I have anchored from the stern a few times on different boats, and can confirm that Jordan is definitely right -- a boat anchored that way is much more stable and doesn't "dance" at anchor. It's this dancing or sheering -- which comes from the bow being blown off first one way, then the other way -- which leads to the destruction of anchored boats in hurricanes.

Whether your boat can handle green water over the stern or not is an individual question. Depends on the boat, the hatches, the cockpit drains, etc. My boat is center cockpit, so the stern is something like 25 feet away from the cockpit. It would take quite a wave to get that far -- extraordinarily high and steep, something unlikely to be found in a properly chosen anchorage. All in all, if I had to ride out a hurricane at anchor, I would definitely anchor from the stern as Jordan suggests, at least in my boat.

I'm not sure that even a boat inclined to be pooped in that configuration, would not be better off anchored from the stern. With good hatches, washboards, and cockpit drains, it might not be a problem (everyone takes green water over the bow, after all, from time to time).


You go on and on about how unseaworthy modern efficient boats are -- in contrast to your own traditional underbody boat. Well, it's a matter of taste and priority, and no one is knocking you for your choices. But you really fail, in my opinion, to perceive the benefits of modern underbody design in terms of seaworthiness. Efficient underwater foils make a boat sail a whole lot better, meaning faster and closer to the wind. That is really a great benefit in any given situation, particularly if you are trying to sail off a lee shore, the original question. You need less sail area up to get up to useful speed, which is also a benefit. Good sailing performance gives you much better choices in rough weather, to take active measures.

Now modern underbody boats are not all alike. Some of them have very flat bottoms, because that reduces wetted area, increases form stability, etc. -- J-Boats for example. Wide sterns improve downwind performance and add form stability, allowing ballast to be reduced, which increases speed. This is probably just the right trade-off for coastal sailing where you are never too far away from a port to get out of any bad weather -- the way 90% of sailboats are actually used in real life. Other modern underbody boats are different -- the bottoms aren't so flat, the forefoot is sharper, the sterns are tighter, the keels are a bit longer, you may find a skeg rudder or partial skeg, instead of a full spade. This is just a different set of tradeoffs -- some performance is given up for the sake of less pounding, more ballast stability, a more seakindly motion, etc. The second type is what you usually find in high-end blue water boats -- Oysters, HR, Contest, etc., although it must be said that even stolid old HR has now gone to a spade rudder on most of their boats.

Few boats are built today with full keels -- the Island Piglet or Packet being one of the very few which is sold in any number. That is because very few sailors are willing to take the huge performance hit in exchange for a certain quantum of sea-kindliness or straight tracking, which is constantly shrinking in comparison with blue water modern underbody boats, as the technology improves. These sailors are mostly not idiots, contrary to what you might think.

I certainly wouldn't want a full keel boat, under any circumstances. Good performance is key to sailing enjoyment, in my book, and in fact, to safety. My own boat is fairly conservatively designed -- the bulb keel is not that high aspect (and is truly massively built), and the rudder is on a partial skeg for strength and protection, the stern is gracefully narrow, the freeboard is not that high for the size of the boat. When I bought the boat, that skeg was important to me, but now I'm not sure I wouldn't trade it for a true spade, as Halberg-Rassey have started doing. A true spade rudder will add a significant amount of performance, and when they are well executed, they are very strong -- with very few problems reported.

It's all tradeoffs. If you're happy with your own tradeoffs, then more power to you. The fact that your tradeoffs are different from others', however, does not prove that everyone else is an idiot.
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Old 08-12-2011, 05:33   #303
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

A couple of comments:

"Such boats - especially the Flicka - are initially more tender, and require a high angle of heel for maximum upwind effciency."

This is an error. No boat requires a high angle of heel for maximum upwind efficiency. Some old-fashioned designs get a longer effective waterline length when heeled, but that is the only good effect from heeling. Heeling reduces sail area exposed to the wind, increases wetted surface and drag, messes up the keel's and rudder's hydrodynamic performance and balance. Stand her up -- especially when sailing upwind.


"They have tight asses . . . huge, barn-door rudders, and bowsprits that place most of their windage forward and as much as possible of their underwater profiles aft" . . .

"The flow of water that the keel "sees" is opposite to the airflow you sense in the cockpit when headed downwind, therefore a fat aft keel and barn-door rudder with a forward windage profile will result in a much more directionally stable boat than a boat with a spindley fin keel located amidships and deep tiny, weak-assed, balanced spade rudder forward of the transom"

Huh? Just the opposite -- windage forward and keel aft is a recipe for weather-cocking, not stability. Full keel boats do track better, all other things being equal, than fin-keelers, but that is simply because a long keel resists turning more. At least they track better off the wind. But the tradeoff (where tracking is concerned) is leeway. An efficient fin keel boat will track better upwind than a full-keeler, because the fin keel is producing more force (and less drag), reducing leeway.

And no amount of inherent tracking stability is any substitute for balancing your sails. Your full keel boat with poorly balanced sails might stay somewhat closer to a steady course, but you will be going even slower because of the increased drag.
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Old 08-12-2011, 05:39   #304
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Yes - and Jordan was and is ridiculed for this theory.

I don't accept anything on faith. I'm an empiricist, and I need evidence.

Thus, my satire.



Softheaded appeals to tradition and marketing don't impress me:

Repeatable evidence and facts do.

Jordan formed his theories based on science and physics after learning of the Fasnet disaster (don't get me started on THAT).

He decided to start from scratch and after careful study, figured out some pretty obvious things -like that modern sloop rigged sailboats have most of their windage forward -and as an aeronautical engineer recognized that forward windage tends to create a moment couple that rotates a boat about its hydrodynamic center.

This means that to increase stability, the hydrodynamic center must move AFT as conditions worsen, not forward, hence his drogue is deployed off the STERN not the bow.

His drogue design is solid in several other respects:

In architecture, we call it "structural redundancy" - and his series drouge has it in spades. If one drouglet fails, there are plenty of others to take up the slack - dozens and dozens of little cones move the center of hydrodynamic effort aft, rather than a single spare tire or traditional drouge that surfaces exactly when you most need it submerged to prevent a pichpole or broach -

...and it gets better:

That series drogue loads up PROGRESSIVELY rather than all at once like a paranchor, reducing dynamic ("snatch") loads on the boat, its hardware, and its crew.

....and these drogues are much shorter than a para-anchor rode, less complex, and easier to deploy.

Now any sailor who pays attention will notice that his boat is more stable under some sail configurations than others.

Each boat design is different however, at least broadly, between classes of boats:

Yawls handle differently than sloops.

Sloops handle differently than schooners.

Square riggers....

Cats

Lanteens

etc....

Add to this the fact that modern racing rule influenced boats have deep, efficient keels and balanced rudders (to reduce wetted area), and fat aft sections, copius freeboard, flat bottoms and roller furling headsails, (to create spacious interiors, comfort, and ease of handling (in moderate conditions) for consumers seeking space and comfort at anchor or while costal cruising)

Consider that all of these characteristics of the modern "racer cruiser" were developed for reasons other than "seaworthiness", and the picture becomes quite complex and ominous:

Does that furled headsail's windage offset that fat-assed aft "stateroom" windage and high freeboard?

Does the narrow plumb bow, fine entry, and flat sheer make it's bow dive under waves when overpressed upwind?

(an extreme example of this trend are the reverse bows of the AC cats, which are so famously prone to pitch-polling)

How does that huge dodger effect its areodynamics?

The weather cloths?

The radar arch?

The Bimini?

The Dink on the davits?

How do those jerry jugs you had to stow on deck because of the lack of stowage below effect its ultimate stability and windage profile?

What if you claw down that roller furrling headsail and stow it below?

What about that tiny fin keel and rudder, who's center of lateral hydrodynamic resistance wants to be in the exact OPPOSITE place as the lateral AERODYNAMIC center of resistance - at least for maximum stability?

Remember:

The flow of water that the keel "sees" is opposite to the airflow you sense in the cockpit when headed downwind, therefore a fat aft keel and barn-door rudder with a forward windage profile will result in a much more directionally stable boat than a boat with a spindley fin keel located amidships and deep tiny, weak-assed, balanced spade rudder forward of the transom, both of which will be stalled if hove-to or lying to a sea anchor.

This is the modern "Racer Cruiser" in your nutsack, and it is inherently unstable - because that instability results in a boat that can tack faster, and maneuver more quickly around bouys and other boats when racing.

This boat has less drag, and is faster, all things being equal (especially length) than a traditional boat, but it requires constant attention at the helm to prevent broaching downwind - even in moderate conditions.

It pounds in a seaway upwind, and is ill mannered and skittish downwind. It will not heave-to, and as conditions worsen, it comes unglued, inspiring terror rather than the confidence a traditional boat inspires.

No wonder you want a powerful engine - its your only hope of making it home alive if you are shorthanded, underequipped, or underskilled in such a boat in challenging conditions - something that is not the case in the offshore races where such boats were developed, like the Fasnet and Sydney / Hobart - Yet to this day, experienced professional offshore racing sailors are lost in such boats pushing the envelope of design and common sense.

And this same boat lulls its amateur skipper into complacency with its initial form stiffness and its "powerful, reliable inboard diesel".

But when things get ugly, this quick, spacious, lightly built thoroughbred shows its vices - often brutally.

Now a dowdy, heavily built old boat like a Flicka 20 or a Westsail 32 might not tack quickly or point to 35 degrees apparent around the bouys. They accellerate slowly, have short, low aspect, single spreader rigs.

They are under canvassed by racing boat standards.

Such boats - especially the Flicka - are initially more tender, and require a high angle of heel for maximum upwind effciency.

They have tight asses, tight interiors, soft chines, round, deep bilges, long keels, huge, barn-door rudders, and bowsprits that place most of their windage forward and as much as possible of their underwater profiles aft:

http://images.bluewaterboats.org/wes...il32-lines.gif

.....and this results in a boat that will take care of herself and her crew in pretty much anything, including a 100 year North Atlantic storm:



Now for some reason, (crew panic from what I gather) the skipper of the Satori is making a half-hearted attempt to beat to windward under storm jib, rather than running off.

And for the love of god, its working!

In winds that are a steady 70 MPH, gusting to 90mph

....in the infamous "Perfect Storm"

( I know, I'm exaggerating - those seas are 8 foot at most, and the winds not even 30 knots - why just look at the surface of the water )

....and while this does not look like an especially pleasant experience for her crew, the Satori herself looks to me like she is doing just fine -

The USCG and its rescue boat on the other-hand, look like THEY are the ones in trouble....

The Flicka 20, and dozens of older, out of fashion boats share the exact same design and heritage as the Westsail -

They were developed through hundreds of years of trail and error by Atlantic and North Sea fishermen and pilots who HAD to be out on the ocean every day, year round, in the worst weather, year after year, to feed trier families.

The lives of of these men were on the line, not their BVI vacations.

Thousands died refining the design of the traditional heavy displacement sailing work-boat, and I'd sooner trust my life to it than some obnoxious chunk of smelly rattling inboard iron wedged under the companionably steps of a boat that looks like a pair of Gucci sunglasses.

The history of the heavy displacement workboat is empiricism at its most poignant.

But we arrogant, vain, competitive modern sailors know better than those sailors or yore, don't we?

Mankind has conquered the forces of nature remember?



...and the Sartori?

After her skipper was FORCED by the USCG to abandon his sound vessel, ("foundering" my ass....) she sailed herself up on a North Carolina beach -intact, with loose gear still on deck - and was re-floated without incident.

As of 2000, she was still afloat:

Westsail Owners Association - Satori - Perfect Storm the whole story

So go ahead and question tradition - but learn it's lessons first:

The Satori's skipper never resorted to using her engine - he sailed her - like a proper seaman - while the USCG nearly lost its motorized rescue boat and her crew attempting to "rescue" him.

The USCGs rescue personnel had to be rescued by thier own helicopter - after failing to rescue the crew of the Satori - so you engine fanatics might want to carry a spare helicopter and USCG rescue swimmer with you, along with that spare impeller.

These are sailboats - learn how to sail them, and for the love of god, be careful about the situations you place yourself in.

Look at those conditions, and tell me how much good Satori's "powerful, reliable diesel engine" would have done.


A fantastically written, articulate and understandable article.

But let's just remember that we have a wide range of experiences here. At five years' sailing I can't possibly have the sailing experience of someone who has been sailing for 20 years if they've gone out a lot. So what I can do in a storm may well be different than what someone else can do.

For me, the common sense in all of this comes simply from more ordinary "rough" water ... my boat is better balanced and a more pleasant experience with the sails up than the sails down. The boat was designed to have sails UP. That will include things like reefing in high winds.

But The person here who has sailed heavily for 20 years will make different judgments than I have after five years of cramming in every bit of sailing I could.

I particularly appreciate the more accurate information about the Flicka -- not that I have one. Not all 20' boats are equal in tough waters.
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Old 08-12-2011, 06:53   #305
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

All of this sounds like grizzled vets trying to explain to the new recruit what battle is like. Hogan come sail up to Washington in next three months. Upon rounding Cape Flattery I will hold a big party and everyone will listen how your Flicka handled gale force winds and moderate (20 ft) waves. I will even throw in 100 $ if you do it on your own.
You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?
I didn't think so.
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Old 08-12-2011, 07:07   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Beth
All of this sounds like grizzled vets trying to explain to the new recruit what battle is like. Hogan come sail up to Washington in next three months. Upon rounding Cape Flattery I will hold a big party and everyone will listen how your Flicka handled gale force winds and moderate (20 ft) waves. I will even throw in 100 $ if you do it on your own.
You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?
I didn't think so.
Unfortunately there are real skills to be learned and this could be a pretty serious subject. As it is it's the Flickas, motorcycles, hookers and amphetamines extraberganzer!

Entertaining not educational...
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Old 08-12-2011, 07:23   #307
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pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Unfortunately there are real skills to be learned and this could be a pretty serious subject. As it is it's the Flickas, motorcycles, hookers and amphetamines extraberganzer!

Entertaining not educational...
No... it is educational...
I agree with Hogan...
Take/do 3 things to get you HIGH... Bike's, Broad's n Drugs...
Sooner or later your gonna need something thats slows you down...
If he's like this after a sail...
Imagine what he's like after some Whizz, a mad 100+mph bike ride to a sexy trio in a 'Red Zone' and then a madar$ed ride back to meet you in a bar....
A Perfect Storm...
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Old 08-12-2011, 07:42   #308
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I think you guys are a little hard on Hoges.

This thread has saved me a trip to the library and only yesterday I was having a beer with T. Jones who was saying how much he enjoyed reading this thread also, but I admit I didn't get the full gist of what Mr Jones was saying as Elvis was playing rather loudly at the time.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:29   #309
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

For those who don't appreciate Hogan's stories: drink some rums, let your Mac or Siri read Hogans posts to you while you close your eyes and imagine yourself in a Caribbean watering hole with parrot and all and Hogan telling these stories at the bar. I like this much better than those about the big fish that got away etc.

We all understand it's just a 20' Flicka. Heck, if he gets into trouble and I'm around, I can pick him up, boat and all, in my davits.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:34   #310
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

It was an interesting read(in the link) about the Santori that Hogan posted. I also learned that a Tayana 37(a boat that I sail) left with the Santori(a Westsail 32) for the trip to Bermuda. The one thing that I question is the tactic of lying ahull which the Santori did during the "Perfect Storm". The skipper of the Santori also decided later on to put up a storm jib and to contiue lying ahull. I would think that both tactics would put the boat broadside to the waves resulting in knock downs which did occur. IMHO a storm tri sail alone could point that bow more into the waves while hove to and thus would be a better passive stragedy. or...raising a storm jib and sheeting in tight and allowing the boat to run off with warps to slow the speed might also work...One thing that the many survival storms show is that the boat is not the weak link...it's the humans aboard.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:55   #311
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
We all understand it's just a 20' Flicka. Heck, if he gets into trouble and I'm around, I can pick him up, boat and all, in my davits.
Not me. My beam is only 14', which means the Flicka would stick out 3' on each side.
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:17   #312
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I think you guys are a little hard on Hoges.

This thread has saved me a trip to the library and only yesterday I was having a beer with T. Jones who was saying how much he enjoyed reading this thread also, but I admit I didn't get the full gist of what Mr Jones was saying as Elvis was playing rather loudly at the time.
I love Hoagie and would join his fan club. I've even watched all his videos and have all his albums!

Remember this guy is just about to get out of the California school system and get out there for real. No wonder he's amped!

I seriously hope he continues to update us when he travels!
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Old 08-12-2011, 13:10   #313
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
It was an interesting read(in the link) about the Santori that Hogan posted. I also learned that a Tayana 37(a boat that I sail) left with the Santori(a Westsail 32) for the trip to Bermuda. The one thing that I question is the tactic of lying ahull which the Santori did during the "Perfect Storm". The skipper of the Santori also decided later on to put up a storm jib and to contiue lying ahull. I would think that both tactics would put the boat broadside to the waves resulting in knock downs which did occur. IMHO a storm tri sail alone could point that bow more into the waves while hove to and thus would be a better passive stragedy. or...raising a storm jib and sheeting in tight and allowing the boat to run off with warps to slow the speed might also work...One thing that the many survival storms show is that the boat is not the weak link...it's the humans aboard.

The trick of lying ahul as destribed in the Satories write-up was getting the boat in sync at the same rate as the prevailing waves.

The problem He encountered, according to him, was the Perfect Storm had two centers of low pressure that caused the waves to be an irregular interference pattern, and impossible to settle in to.
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Old 08-12-2011, 13:46   #314
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Thanks again guys -

Regarding the hydrodynamic vs aerodynamic profiles, a couple of really basic things:

1) moving water and air follow the same basic laws of physics - they can both be considered fluids, though air is compressible and much less dense than water.

2) both can generate lift - sails for air, keels for water - as long as the flow of each fluid remains laminar, and the fluid on one side of the foil is forced to speed up to catch the fluid on the other side.

As Jordan explains it, surface area that's offset relative to some neutral axis or "center" of mass tends to be "blown-downwind". The feathers of an arrow, the tails of birds and aircraft are examples of this, and since all of the above move "upwind" when aloft, this stabilizing windage is at the back of thier bodies.

So is the fin on a surfboard: Its at the back of a surfboard to provide stability and some lateral resitance for turning the board. Many surfboard fins can be moved forward and aft to adjust the handling of the board - forward, it turns easily, aft, and the board becomes more stable. As waves get bigger, the fin is moved back to help create stability. Moving your wieght aft on a surfboard (or boat) has the same effect (to a point - it doesnt work if you stall either.)

Now I know this is hard to visualize, but really think carefully:

When sailing off the wind, the wind is coming from behind you, right?

So you want to fly your sails as far forward as possible - to "pull her by the nose" right? This is why spinnakers, genoas and twin running sails are flown as far forward as possible off the wind, and its why striking the main, which is used to turn the boat's bow into the wind and balance the headsail upwind - is a good idea downwind in heavy air - even ignoring the dangers that an accidental gybe presents or the danger of breaking your boom, to say nothing of the whole chafe issue.

Sail area forward = stability, like the tail of a bird. You are in a sense flying your boat "backwards" with respect to airflow, at least as a function of direction of travel - unlike with an airplane, arrow, or bird, we are sailing with, not against the apparent wind when we run or reach off.

Now, heres the thing:

We sailors travel at the exact boundry between two fluids. The denser fluid, water, is below the boat, and its apparent direction of flow is OPPOSITE that of the less dense fluid, air.

Dont believe me?

Drop somethinging worthless into the water as you sail downwind, like an old torn up cushion, a beer bottle, or your ex-wife, and watch them move UPWIND from your perspective.

(ok, now harden up, and go back and get them - its illegal to dispose of plastic, garbage, or toxic waste in the ocean)

So for hydrodynamic stability, the further AFT the keel and rudder are the more directionally stable the boat.

Its the same principal, just the inverse location of the "windage" for aerodynamic stability.

(One of the reasons I was booted from Flicka20 was becuase of an argument I had with Charlie Dewell, thier saint, when he stated that "Sailing is not rocket science" and I told him was right - its much more complex than stupid rocket science, where all you have to do is blast a bunch of shaved down monkeys and statalites and crap into low earth orbit. And Charlie probably still cant figure out why the motion of his Flicka in the trades was so horrific he lost 40 POUNDS (!) due to constant seasickness in his 40 day crossing from MDR to the Marquessas)

Strike the main Charlie! - Its not rocket science you know!

lol.....

At anchor the boat is not sailing, and its keel is stalled (hopefully!) so the location of the underwater center of lateral resistance takes a Newtonian back-seat to the forces of wind and wave on the topsides.

And this is the exact problem - what was previously a stability benefit sailing downwind (forward windage) is now a liability, and this windage tries to spin the boat around and put the part of the boat with the least windage downwind to achieve aerodynamic balance, which in the case of a Flicka is maddeningly, precisely beam-to, because once the boat starts sheering, she's moving, and the underwater profile starts coming into play again, where upon she fetches up on her chain with a spine jarring jerk, becuase I was too lazy to rig my snubber, then starts the whole process all over again.

This cycling action is called "oscillation".

It can happen in buildings too BTW, especilly in earthquakes (I was an Architect in California) and its to be feared and enginineered out at all costs, becuase at a certain frequency, called the "resonant frequency" the oscillations tend to reinforce each other, leading to structural resonance and the destruction of your building, along with the deaths of its inhabitants:



Regarding the size of my boat:

Look again at the Satori video. Do you really think making the Satori 10 feet longer or shorter would have made ANY difference in those conditions?

Her sail was driving her, albeit barely, to windward, and I agree, lying ahull is kinda lame, but hey, it worked for a day or so, and remeber, the storm was MODERATING when that footage was shot! I've ordered a series drouge. Each skipper has to make the decision that he thinks is right for his ship, and I believe its the correct choice for Nomad.

Note the size of RIB the USCG sent to "rescue" The crew of the Satori.

lol....

Then look at the size of the rescue swimmer who had to save the RIB crew when the Satori holed thier boat, and then think about what I just explained about resonance. The swimmer is actually IN the water, with what, 6" of freeboard?

Realize that as long as you are above or below the resonant frequency of the particular sea-state you find yourself in, which is a function of the size and period of the waves, and your boat is well found and reasonably watertight your boat will be FINE even under the very worst conditions, although you will be uncomfortable.

Another hero of mine is William Bligh, who has gotten a bad wrap IMO. 18 foot open longboat, 19 guys or something, 4" of freeboard. Read his log of the journey. He and his men sail that boat 5000 ocean miles through gale after gale after gale, to safety, while his mutinous crew get drunk and murder each other on Pitcairn over the women they kinapped from Tahiti.

Big surfboards used to be considered the only way to ride big waves - but then Laird Hamilton invented tow-in surfing, and showed that such is not the case:



You guys that think your big boats can conquor anything should have a look at that clip, because waves like that could roll a supertanker.

a small, stout, full keeled boat?

sure it will roll too - but I bet it would still be floating afterwards, have its keel and perhaps its rudder too, while most modern racer cruisers would snap like twigs, lose thier keels, and remain inverted, if still afloat.

And how many through-hulls does your mega yacht have below the waterline?

Are the hoses attached to them as strong as your hull?

Nomad has exactly one through-hull:

Her 1/2" sink drain.
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Old 08-12-2011, 13:47   #315
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I'm not sure how I would get the boat in sync with the prevailing waves considering that wave patterns may not be constant during the time the storm rages. Even if the wave pattern stayed constant the height of the waves would change and accordingly the chances of "tripping over" the keel would always be present.
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