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Old 06-12-2011, 19:39   #286
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
"As people getting kidnapped in Baja discos by El chupacabra, then waking up in a motel 6 bathtub full of ice missing a kidney with a note taped thier foreheads..."

list your sources for this tripe. you need to stop reading the fiction books quite so much.

any passage in west coast can end up being that which you may not wish to endure--- just have common sense and plan correctly and get thru it.

the fiction is is entertaining, although becoming boring. smooth sailing. when finally launch your 20 ft flicka, please do post trip reports about your clawing off the lee shores of the west coast.
Look, I'm concerned for your safety, and the safety of those reading this:

El Chupacabra is REAL:

Chupacabra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And just like THE BOOGIE MAN, he resents it when people don't believe in him, gets angry, and attacks them in Mexican Motel Seses, after shape shifting from a disco dancing teenage Mexican hooker into a skilled organ transplant surgeon.

Have you ever seen the size of a Mexican Motel Ses ice machine?

Do you really think it needs to be that big to make Margharitas?

C'mon - use your BRAIN. Millions of people the world over can't all be wrong about Chupacabra!

Kinda like some of the haters around here....
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Old 06-12-2011, 19:54   #287
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I love this thread...!

Although I do find it ironic that it also demonstrates that lee shores don't only exist at sea.

-beeep-!!!!



Snacks are served, carry on!

Frank
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Old 06-12-2011, 19:56   #288
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Kinda like some of the haters around here....
WE DONT HATE YOU HOGAN, WE JUST THINK YOU'RE FULL OF CRAP..
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Old 06-12-2011, 20:18   #289
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Amen! No other thread has Randy and I seeing eye to eye!
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Old 06-12-2011, 20:36   #290
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Do you have a sea anchor, or can you drop multiple anchors to keep your boat from running aground if the need arises?
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Old 07-12-2011, 00:39   #291
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Do you have a sea anchor, or can you drop multiple anchors to keep your boat from running aground if the need arises?
A sea anchor will only slow your drift not stop it. They are a controversial heavy weather tactic, but would be worth considering, as a last ditch option, with some lee shore situations and no other means of escape.

In bad (or even moderate) conditions, with no protection from wave action, conventional anchors are unlikely to hold.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:15   #292
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Some people around here dont seem to appreciate the DANGER El Chupacabra represents, so let me put this in plain ENGLISH for you:

Sure, you are all brave, sitting behind your computers, calling me "full of crap" and stuff, but if the SUCKGOAT were sitting next you, and removing your kidneys, would you be so brave?

I think not.

As far as using an outboard for motorsailing:

Yes - it works. Ive bashed into 20 knot winds and steep 6 to 8 foot breaking chop with a 7 or 8 second period at 5 knots under double reefed, flat sheeted main. The trick is to take the waves at an angle, and slalom around the crests.

Its wet and uncomfortable becuase the apparent wind is pushing 25 knots (near gale) and because you are bashing like a damned idiot into it, it throws huge amounts of spray over the boat.

I've only done it a few times, and only to see where the performance envelope was. Yes, you can point higher like this, but the higher you point, the worse it gets. Still, I suppose its an ace in the hole - just dont count on it to save your ass when the chips are down, because when you go to play that ace, its probably gonna turn out to be a Joker.

....and not only that, you can "thrust vector" with an outboard, which is sometimes useful, and it can be used as emergency steering.

I'm considering shipping a Minkota Riptide as a backup motor - how many of you Suckgoat heritics - hell, how many of you cattle mutilation heritics for that matter - carry a spare deisel engine?

Yea, that's what I thought.

Now, about parachute anchors:

There is a lot of controversy about them, and about heaving-to in heavy weather from what I gather. From what I can tell, it all depends on the particular boat, and rigging an adjustable bridle according to the Pardey's is essential to getting the boat angled and riding correctly.

Since I have never encountered the sort of ultimate conditions that would require deployment of a sea-anchor, I cant speak with any authority about how a Flicka would handle under such a rig.

But there are a few clues:

Nomad absolutely HATES to keep her bow pointed into the wind at anchor, and likes to lie beam to. She sails around a lot, veering one way then the other before fetching up and heading off the other way. A double reefed main sheeted flat amidships calms her down considerably, but what she really likes is to lie STERN TO.

And i've anchored in 18 knots 1/4 mile off a lee shore (Dockwiler State Beach) just outside the surf like like this, and she is quite stable - especially with a small jib up and sheeted flat amidships.

The only issue was getting pooped ocassionaly, but hey, my hatch boards are 1" thick solid teak, the cockpit bulkhead 2" of plywood and fiberglass, so, whatever.

Flickas will not heave-to with any sort of jib up, backed or not, and when winds are more than 15 knots and seas start building, it gets progressively harder to sheet and trim the main to keep her head up - and even if you are successful, she will solowly forereach, trailing the Pardey's savior slick astern and to windward, which offers little protection from breaking waves.

So you are better off SAILING under reduced canvas, even when it gets really ugly, than trying to park a Flicka if your destination or safety lies upwind.

Downwind?

Strike the main (duh!) and sheet a small jib (80% or less of the foretriangle so it doesnt foul the mast of spreaders) FLAT amidships, and your happy girl will sail herself dead downwind with the helm lashed, for hours if need be.

If you are really anal, you can put her under autopilot, but its not neccesary.

This is a distinct advantage of a "downwind" boat like a flicka - the windage (mast, proud bow, headsail on a sprit) is well forward, and thus she tends to weather-cock downwind quite happily.

That flat headsail up front immediately puts the kibosh on any round-ups - or round downs, and dampens the rolling to a considerable degree as well.

So, after much considereration, sea trials, and research, I ordered a Jordan Series drouge from Ace Sailmakers.

Jordan was an aeronautical engineer, and he spent years developing his drouge. His theories are solid, and he had the CG test it in on the Columbia rivermouth bar in big breaking waves - with great sucess, wheras the paraanchor fouled and failed repeately.

From what I gather, no boat has ever been rolled while riding to a series drouge, or been lost, and anecdotally they make riding out a major storm - even a hurricane - relatively easy.

the biggest problem is recovery, but I have a solution to that - bend short warps onto the damed thing with rolling hitches, and reeeeel it in by using alternating sheet winches 6 or 7 feet at a time.

This is how I recovered over 200 feet of nylon and 225 feet of chain from 80 feet of water off Catalina when my windlass fleming jamed and hopelessly fouled it.

It was a grind, but I was able to get over 200 lbs of equipment back without incident.

....And the final determining factor was the fact that the Jordan drouge slows the boat to around 1.5 knots or less - same as a para-anchor, but much more reliably.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:27   #293
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !


Just becaues 90% of people here think you exagerate a lot is not the same as hate.
It can even be entertainment.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:43   #294
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post

And i've anchored in 18 knots 1/4 mile off a lee shore (Dockwiler State Beach) just outside the surf like like this, and she is quite stable - especially with a small jib up and sheeted flat amidships.

The only issue was getting pooped ocassionaly, but hey, my hatch boards are 1" thick solid teak, the cockpit bulkhead 2" of plywood and fiberglass, so, whatever.
.
Wind forces rise at the square of the wind speed. Wave forces probably increase more dramatically.
Any technique that sees you “pooped occasionally” in 18k ! is going to be impossible, or catastrophic, in a storm force wind
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:49   #295
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Wind forces rise at the square of the wind speed. Wave forces probably increase more dramatically.
Any technique that sees you “pooped occasionally” in 18k ! is going to be impossible, or catastrophic, in a storm force wind
Yes, but -- he might really be better off -- and all of us might really be better off -- anchored stern-to. He's been reading the Jordan website which has a lot of material on this subject, and which recommends stern-to anchoring in storms. I happen to think that it is right. No boat lies happily bow-to. That's because the center of pressure of any sailboat is ahead of the keel, making bow-to anchoring inherently unstable. And it's the sheering back and forth which saws through anchor rodes in hurricanes. If I had to ride out a hurricane at anchor in my boat, I would anchor stern-to. You don't care so much about getting pooped, if your hatches are closed.

Here's the article Hogan is paraphrasing: http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pd...ordan52006.pdf
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Old 07-12-2011, 13:39   #296
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I had a 180 degree wind change North East coast of Tasmaina 40 to 42knots lee shore but choose to ride it out......was a scary night!!
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Old 07-12-2011, 18:55   #297
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Yes, but -- he might really be better off --
with all the issues Hogan has Sailing and keeping that "Dink" of his pointed in the right direction,
H'd probably be better off giving it up and buying a "travel trailer".

In all the years we've sailed and the saltwater miles we've logged, We've NEVER had the problems he has...............
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Old 07-12-2011, 22:12   #298
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Quote:
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with all the issues Hogan has Sailing and keeping that "Dink" of his pointed in the right direction,
H'd probably be better off giving it up and buying a "travel trailer".

In all the years we've sailed and the saltwater miles we've logged, We've NEVER had the problems he has...............
I think Hogan is the most enthusiastic committed person around the forum at present. In his posts are truth and wisdom...

I am developing a computer algorithm to extract it. Something like every second sentence or every third paragraph or every 4th word hasn't worked and I need more computer power. I am contemplating setting up a distributed computing network so we may all work on this together...

Keep it up Hoagie, it's fascinating stuff!
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Old 07-12-2011, 22:16   #299
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Oh, Hogan.
I just realized, you and me are not talking about the same things. 29 feet, oops, no 20 feet. Yahah...
I've got a cheap old boat, but your boat would fit on my foredeck crossways. And I could walk around it. But we both feel threatened out there when conditions go bad. The difference is at 20 knots or 25 knots, I have my working sail up and that's normal. At 45 knots downwind, my malfunctioning roller furler didn't matter. The sail went bye bye. The overall situation is the same, maybe the wind speed is different. At some point you have to get a little bit apprehensive. A lee shore might be a good place to land your boat in a survival storm.
I like the way you write about your experiences with your boat. Someone who wanted to go sailing in a Flicka would probably consider all your difficulties and not go sailing. But I appreciate that you go out there and knowing that your boat is vulnerable. You still go out.
I get a wake up call when the wind puts me onto a shore and I've got to work my way off, but my boat can probably do it or take the beach without too much damage. Rocks are bad. Even an inlet can be bad if there's no room to wheel up and anchor.
Anyway, I like the way you describe your forays out into the ocean. Every minute is a treasure to remember. I've been on a small boat and we ran aground, and it was a memorable experience. The owner was upset and said he thought we were going to show him the right way to sail. We looked at each other and both said we were showing him how not to sail. He supplied the beer, so he was at fault.
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Old 07-12-2011, 22:28   #300
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Not sure this guy is ready to give up the aux power, convert to outboard or even electric.



Did you note the spray? It was an offshore wind. That chicken should have been sailing!

And this one is just too cool! How to make a cat go fast...



It would be useful for some folks to do some youtubeing. Search for gale, force 9, atlantic crossing and of course don't forget the Volvo Ocean racers. It may help put "bay sailing" in 20 knots in perspective.
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