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Old 15-11-2011, 14:19   #16
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

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I am aware that my fuel pick-up is not on the centreline of the tank, and will probably starve the engine on a starboard tack if I take too many rails down, and fuel is low.
Anchors I normally carry are probably not big enough, but I carry excessive rode both in length and diameter.
Not looking forward to that "quad erat demonstrandum".
I found a tall fruit can, with small holes in the bottom sides, around the pick-up tube, can reduce the starvation problem for rough seas.
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Old 15-11-2011, 14:22   #17
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

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I hear this The "Clawing of a lee shore" thing so often around my dock its become cliche - I figure either it happens all the time, or almost never, and is really the result of a combination of fear based marketing used hype to sell powerful engines to new sailors, and ignorance on the part of the buying public regarding the utility of said engines.
Cliche or not, sailboats are vulnerable to lee shores. A reliable auxiliary engine decreases that vulnerability significantly. Your decision to replace a gasoline-powered outboard with a electric trolling motor increases your boat's vulnerability. The fact that you don't enjoy hearing this from your dockmates doesn't change the reality.

It's not often that cruisers change their boats' basic configurations to make them less safe. This probably explains why the folks on the dock are telling you things you don't want to hear.

Add my voice to theirs; I question the wisdom of the change you've made to your boat.
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Old 15-11-2011, 14:24   #18
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

You are a kind man, Blue Stocking - he not only insults anyone who relies upon a diesel (or any form of power), he suggests that when ours fail and the boat wrecks (because obviously anyone with a diesel wouldn't have storm sails and the ability to use them) he'd like the ST winches - afterall they are 'pretty' and he could sell them so that he could buy another anchor. Wait, he needs another anchor? I guess he has been going to sea to this point with inadequate ground tackle. Anyway, he is a real sailor - like the great Moitessier, and the rest of us are....?

He wants HARD DATA ( although will settle for anecdotal) to contradict his opinions, which seem supported by neither. Good for you, but I for one couldn't be bothered sharing experiences with him.

Brad
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Old 15-11-2011, 14:29   #19
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

Try not to put yourself in a position of having to claw off of the lee shore. Using an electric motor would require you to be very vigilant and not put yourself at risk.
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Old 15-11-2011, 14:34   #20
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

The most common “lee shore” incident a cruising sailor will experience is a dragging anchor. In these sort of circumstances, in many instances, even the most accomplished sailor will be very lucky to sail themselves out of trouble.
If you have not got an engine that will make progress against these sort of conditions you will need a lot of skill and /or luck to escape


Moitissier a lost his steel boat on a lee shore.
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Old 15-11-2011, 14:36   #21
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

hogan--where do you sail?????
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Old 15-11-2011, 15:11   #22
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

Stalag 13?
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Old 15-11-2011, 15:17   #23
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

Hmm. I will resist some observations and simply say I use what I have, engines and sails to get away, internet and radio to get warnings and forecasts to move sooner rather than later.
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Old 15-11-2011, 16:01   #24
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

G'Day Hogan,

I'm not sure if your query is for real... perhaps a troll, perhaps genuine... who can tell?

But if it is for real, and you really want anecdotal evidence, here goes:

Our previous boat was a retired IOR one-tonner, 36'OAL, circa 20,000 lbs disp in cruising trim, and had a 35 HP BMW auxiliary coupled to a two blade folding prop.

We were anchored in Denham Bay on Raoul Island (Kermadec group) during cyclone Lisa in May of '91. This anchorage was a WEATHER shore at the time. During the early stages of that storm a neighboring yacht broke her chain rode and was blown out to sea. This boat was a 72 foot ferrocement Brigantine, powered by a GMC 6-71 (IIRC) and she was unable to make headway into the circa 60 knot winds. Her skipper announced that he was going to try to beach her on a headland just outside the bay. His handheld VHF soon became inoperable and we lost contact.

I doubted his ability to accomplish this and was concerned for both him and his volunteer crew (one person). After some consultation with both the NZ met crew on the island and the RNZ navy vessel Southland (about 100 miles away and headed in our direction on a re-provisioning mission for the met station), we weighed anchor and set out to find them and perhaps take them on board.

After an hours unsuccessful search in 60+ knot winds, but in relatively protected waters in the lee of the island, we attempted to return to the anchorage which was about dead to windward. We found that we could not make headway directly into the wind. Considered setting sail, but found that if we "tacked" under power, never going closer than about 50-60 degrees apparent, we made slow progress and eventually re-anchored.

So, in this case we were not trying to "claw off a LEE shore", but rather claw onto a weather shore. But later, the eye of the storm passed over us, and it did become a lee shore. The wind was about the same strength, but the seas built rapidly and we had to get out quickly. Once we got the anchor (275 feet of chain in 40 feet of depth, manual windlass... very hard work on a wildly pitching foredeck) we again found that we couldn't make way to windward. In this case we set the storm jib and motorsailed, again making a few tacks to leave the bay. The engine, besides adding to the speed, gave us the power to get the bow through the wind whilst tacking.

Once offshore we hove to and waited for the rapidly moving storm to pass on its way. By morning it had calmed enough to set sail for Tonga. I am quite sure that if we had not had the engine we would never have escaped to sea, and if the anchor had not held, the boat would have been lost. So, Hogan, there is one case of anecdotal evidence for you.

Incidentally, the brigantine's crew was found the next morning by a helicopter launched from the Southland. They had indeed driven the boat ashore as planned, and escaped onto the cliff-lined shore where they spent a very uncomfortable night. The ferro hulled boat had broken up rapidly and was not visible to the helo crew (nor to us whilst searching).

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 15-11-2011, 16:13   #25
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

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I'm not sure if your query is for real... perhaps a troll, perhaps genuine... who can tell?
Yawn!
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Old 15-11-2011, 16:14   #26
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

Well, I suppose the 99% of the boats that just sit in their slips year after year do not need an engine at all...That being said, if you are sailing and the sh*t hits the fan, then you cannot have enough help. Good ground tackle. Reliable, decent powered engine and most of all a competent crew. I've been in 3 big blows. One, I lost the boom. Guess the Pardeys would have paddled, I don't know! I go with the numbers and have a good reliable diesel (rebuilding mine as we speak).
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Old 15-11-2011, 16:17   #27
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

I’ve sat out a blow with the anchor set, the autopilot and engine WOT keeping her head to windward AND STILL LOST GROUND to the wind.... In a POWER boat!
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Old 15-11-2011, 16:18   #28
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The most common “lee shore” incident a cruising sailor will experience is a dragging anchor. In these sort of circumstances, in many instances, even the most accomplished sailor will be very lucky to sail themselves out of trouble.
If you have not got an engine that will make progress against these sort of conditions you will need a lot of skill and /or luck to escape


Moitissier a lost his steel boat on a lee shore.
Some of our stupid mistakes we don’t want to tell the whole world, but enough time has went by that I feel ok about fussing up to how I almost lost my boat on the rocks- on June 1 2009- I dropped my main anchor with all chain rode over the edge inside the crater of Santroni- just under OIA- then I dropped a second one to be sure ( the second anchor had 40 feet of chain and the rest was ¾ - 3 strand rode)& tied the stern with 5/8s line to the rocky shore, 50 feet away- This area is usually well protected from the meltimi that blows from the North but will still get 25 knots of wind with no seas bouncing off the inside walls- I had spent 2 months the summer before in the same place- so I knew the place well- On June 1 an unforecast storm out of the south blew up and with winds increasing eventfully to a sustained 50 knots- with gusts 60 -65 knots – the hole in the Southern end of the Calder was wide open but the seas and most of the big waves were hitting in a way where I was not directly impacted unless the wind changed direction- and the wind was slowly clocking around-and I was getting 6 ft sharp choppy seas with about 15-20 feet seas outside I would guess-–my stern was only about 50 feet from the rocky shore and I was not sure what to do –I waited too long to get out of there being so close to the rocks-now I was in trouble- I had a few hundred feet of chain out on my Manson Supreme with 5/8 3 strand snubber taking the shock off the anchor rode- 1 of my engines was not working because I was waiting on a water pump">raw water pump belt that was nowhere to be found in the EU at that time so I had 1 engine in forward running - me at the helm all night steering trying to keep the boat facings into the wind-as the wind got up to 60 knots- - My 5/8 shackle deformed and was destroyed and failed and in those few moments it took me to get another line on the chain the force of it all cracked the Fb around the cleat and would have ripped it off in no time- had I not run a snubber through the chain and secured it-I went through 3 snubbers in 24 hours because they kept chafing through- daylight came and the wind was still blowing with no sign of letting up – I had one guy onboard with me so this helped-I was very worried that this chain was going to fail as the seas were increasing as the wind kept clocking around to give me more of a direct hit through the South opening- My dinghy broke its painter in the night and was long gone- and I had to make a decision , drop the anchors and rode and try and make a run off the rocks using both engines or sit there and pray the chain/shakel did not break -with the wind slowly creeping toward a more direct hit I decided to make a run for it- (to this day I’m not sure what I would do if I had to do it all again,) I could use the second engine for a little while long enough to get out of there I thought- So this was the plan- anyway we dropped the first anchor rode off and let it clear the boat then I freed the chain and let it run free and ran back to the helm both engines were running and as luck would have it we pulled forward about 20 feet and one prop got caught in a mooring line and we lost power and steerage as the wind now caught us on the side and within seconds we would be in the rocks , we were within 10 feet of the rocks now and I managed to pull the Jib out and it caught the wind with a bang that sounded like a shot gun - we shot out of there like a cannon ball, all the time keeping the wind close to the sail as not to blow it out- I made it – I was very very did I say VERY lucky- that mistake cost me a few thousand in chain and anchor and dingy but that was a price I happily paid- the locals said they never seen a storm come up from that direction with that severity in 50 years- I went back to recover the anchor & chain, using scuba I went down as deep as 150 feet and could see to 200 or so but it was nowhere to be found-For a moment there I really thought I lost the boat and would have, but luck was with me- The reason I waited too long to move was its normal to get 25-30 knots in that area and at that time it was not coming in from the south-I spent many of sound sleeps with that set up – so I was thinking ok soon the wind will die down but in a few hours it was so strong I could not move without putting everything at risk- and I could not stay either- Everyday im out there is a blessing!
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Old 15-11-2011, 16:27   #29
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Re: OMG!!! CLAWING OFF A LEE SHORE IN A GALE!

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I have a C27 with a 4hp Suzuki OB. Definitely underpowered.
Coronado 27 or Columbia 27?
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Old 15-11-2011, 18:23   #30
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan:

Back in 2008 the second day with electric propulsion on my boat I was in a nice secluded anchorage on the north shore of Long Island. The weather forecast was for winds out of the north 15 to 25 knots. Since I had to head east towards Orient Point about 20 miles I thought this is great. I'll be able to sail along the coast. I forgot about the fetch across Long Island Sound. Again this was only my second day operating with electric propulsion. It actually was part my shakedown cruise. After plowing into 20 knot headwinds at the harbor entrance I cleared the jetty and fell off to the east. It was rough and blowing. I was watching the GPS and it soon became clear I was slowly drifting sideways toward a rocky lee shore about a mile away. I thought to myself with about 15 miles to go this might not have been such a good idea. Then I powered up the electric propulsion system and immediately started to point up and away from the lee shore and it did it with no vibration or noise. I was able to relax as I saw the latitude numbers on the GPS increasing. I made it through Orient Point with a fair current and on to Block Island. Since then I've used my electric propulsion system to point the boat up a number of times to avoid having to tack in gale conditions or get around points of land or obstacles. Those who say electric propulsion is not reliable really don't know how versatile and reliable it really is. I don't hesitate to use whenever I need to. I've never had the "surprises" that I would have with my diesel. Anyway that's my experience and have never regretted making the switch from diesel.
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