Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-11-2011, 19:58   #226
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 88
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

People who answer Hogan's posts with irritation or dismissiveness can't know of his great contribution to marine safety gear. When he used to post on the Yahoo Flicka site, before he was banned from posting there, he wrote a lot about the inflatable shorts he was developing. I thought it was brilliant. You fall in the water and your ass can't drown. A guy who can come up with an idea like that has got to be exceptional.
nial
__________________

__________________
nial is offline  
Old 30-11-2011, 20:36   #227
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Wharram custom 44'
Posts: 231
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Rakuflames,
That is just the situation I found myself in, but I had noone else to blame. I wanted to get closer to shore, because I had evaded a lightning storm earlier by doing the same, in daylight. When the microburst hit, I was ass over teakettle down in the engine box, trying to find why it wouldn't start. It hit, and I was in no position to do anything but try to get back on deck. By then it was all hell had broken loose. Unlike the totally calm mirror sea of before, it was now a white spume field running by with no waves in sight. There was a bang and I looked up and it looked like the mast was over at a 15 degree angle. This is a big cat and it doesn't heel at all. I thought a stay had busted. The sound was like many of us know, a high pitched rush, and all I had to work with was the staysail, and I sailed that, maybe leaving my fingerprints into the SS wheel. The bang I heard was the main traveler letting out. It's 18 ft wide, so it probably let out about 8 feet in one shot. The boat worked along on that staysail and I kept it drawing, not going into irons, and not letting it fall off. The wind strength was very strong for about 45 minutes and then let off. Then it died. I couldn't use any of it. If I was sailing in a breeze and had a gust like that it would have been a round up and douse, but it was 0-60 and no chance to plan other than react. The skiers tell me that when you're hit with an exteme condition, you revert to your most elementry technique, which is usually not the best. We don't think, we react. The more experienced will use a more effective technique that they've learned before. The novice will freeze like I did and maybe survive. Now I know, I can fly the staysail and drop the other sails in a blow and sail like that, maybe up to 50-60 knots. Don't want it to happen.
As for a little monohul like a Flicka, it would probably laid down for 30 to 40 minutes and if no water came in the hatches, would then stand back up, no harm done. The problem in working to weather in a storm is that the surface water is going downwind and the poor boat in that water is also going downwind. I've had those times when even a big boat can't tack and make enough way to tack again, back and forth, in a channel, and make it to windward. Turn on the engine and it's a different ballgame. You make windage and make progress to windward. Not as pure as sail only, but the alternative is to gybe away and find another way out. If you're in a bight you may have to put out your storm ancor(s).
I anchored off a beach once, when my mentor had said the inlet was "perfectly navigable" by phone, and I found it was a bridge too low. I dropped the hook off in about 50 ft of water and collapsed in the bunk for a sleep after 36 hrs sailing. 2 hours later a loud sound woke me and the boat was getting hit by large waves. There was no though as I leapt up on deck and pulled up the anchor, started the engine, and drove through the big waves to deeper water. No harm done, I was underway again and got into an inlet later to get some sleep. If you don't have a reliable engine, you might get pinned with no way out. Big anchors. Drive on a sandy beach and get the boat off later.
__________________

__________________
kaimusailing is offline  
Old 30-11-2011, 21:07   #228
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by nial View Post
People who answer Hogan's posts with irritation or dismissiveness can't know of his great contribution to marine safety gear. When he used to post on the Yahoo Flicka site, before he was banned from posting there, he wrote a lot about the inflatable shorts he was developing. I thought it was brilliant. You fall in the water and your ass can't drown. A guy who can come up with an idea like that has got to be exceptional.
nial
This gem explains a lot. My defense of proformance hulls has been in vain:-) ....
__________________
s/v Beth is offline  
Old 30-11-2011, 23:13   #229
Registered User
 
Hogan's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: La Paz - sorta
Boat: PSC Flicka 20
Posts: 87
Images: 11
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
"Here's another quiz:

if you are 30 miles out in a gale and are making a negative VMG of .5 knots to windward, how long can you stay off the beach?

answer?

60 hours."


Well, here's a quiz for you ...

If you're 30 miles out in a gale and making a negtive VMG of .5 knots to windward, how certain can you be that things will stay that way?

How certain can you be that you're where you think you are if your electronics fail? How sure can you be of how quickly you're moving toward shore under those circumstances?

How likely would it be to be moving at only .5 knot toward shore in a storm?

How certain can you be that water deep enough to keep you safe exists to leeward for all 30 miles?

What if you're holding yourself off the coast with your motor and your motor fails?

What if you anchor, and when the storm is over you have to cut your anchor loose to get away because it was so dug in you couldn't get it up, and then you get caught in another gale?
Seriously?

The sea is a dynamic enviroment, always changing, always evolving, never the same sail twice on the same patch of water.

But I know and practice dead reckoning from time to time.

I carry paper charts and dividers, a compass, and a parallel ruler and roller plotter.

One of my prize possessions is my Plastimo hand bearing compass, which occupies a place of honor next to my $1500 Cannon IS 10x40l binoculars, (My boat is small, so I can afford the best, remember?) my other prize possession, which is backed up by a pair of Cannon 10x30 Binos, also electronically stabilized.

I have two Ritchie Navigator Bulkhead Compasses, the largest and most stable they make mounted to port and starboard, and I personaly learned how to compensate them to read within 1 degree of each other - and my Raymarine fluxgate compass, on all headings by sailing known headings and have double checked them against ranges.

I know how to take magnetic bearings to establish my position, and I know how to line up ranges.

I know how to calculate the favored tack in any given circumstance.

I plan my courses in advance - always on paper charts - with waypoints and legs, and distances and headings, written in pencil and annotated - then enter them into my (P.O.S.) Lowrance chartplotter for back-up - you know, in case my paper charts catch on fire or something.

I then write the resultant headings and estimated segment times above each compass anytime I'm in unfamiliar waters, and I steer by compass and by eye, using the GPS only to verify my speed and position, which I log, hourly, on passage in my log-book.

The GPS is most useful for determining leeway inshore - it shows course over ground, and my compasses show my heading. The difference between them is my leeway, which averages 10 to 13 degrees beating, depending on sea state and the set of any currents.

When I anchor, I carefully survey the anchorage, for wind, swell, rocks, other boats, kelp beds, etc, and before having a couple of beers and ************* my supermodel girlfreind, I make polar diagrams of the safe sectors for exiting in an emergency, and then delimit them with safe magnetic bearings from my faithful Plastimo, cross refferenced to my charts, and backed up with my eye, depth sounder, and gut instincts.

I also keep my outboard in the water.

I do have a electric motor, remember? - its showing itself to be reliable in sea trials too so far, with an occasional error when I over rev or quickly try to to switch between forward and reverse. It's computer controlled (I'm a computer expert BTW) so I unplug and then re-power up the SOB and that always fixes it, just like it fixes pretty much all computer problems.

This takes around 10 seconds.

To the charge that this sophisticated electric outboard has made my boat "less safe /seaworthy" I'd point out that the electric motor eliminated a very dangerous, explosive, carcinogenic fuel funds terrorism and that has burned or exploded aboard many, many boats, leading to the loss of the boat - and worse.

FIRE or EXPLOSION is perhaps the worst thing that can happen at sea - worse even than sinking, because it will probably severely burn you, even if you manage to extinguish it, and there are few burn units at sea. You then get to enjoy a slow, agonizing death aboard your life raft, or in my case, boogie board.

I keep my sails hanked on, the sheets clewed up, and the halayards attached to both the main and jib, and I keep them uncovered until I am certain of the holding and weather at anchor - even if I cover them the next day, its loosely - to keep the UV off them - so I can hoist them quickly in an emergency.

....and I carry a Rockna 10 - which weighs 23lbs,

Rockna recommends a 13lb anchor as a primary storm anchor in marginal holding for a boat of my size and displacement.

and that bower is attached to 225 feet 1/4" HT, which I personally spliced to another 250 feet of 1/2 nylon briat purchased from Defender or Jamestown ( I forget which) when the had some 30% off sale on it or something.

I use a 3/8" nylon snubber attached to the lower bobstay chainplate with a trippled up rolling hitch, and have that sunubber wrapped around another EPDM rubber dock snubber.

I attach this compound, progressive damping, elastic snubber to my chain with a rolling hitch, and have a hook knife and retractable pole in my anchoring bag so I can cut it - and any kelp or bikinis that foul my anchor - free in an emergency.

I have bolt cutters stowed in my tool kit if I need to cut the chain in the event of windlass failure, and I have varoius fenders and buoys in my cockpit locker to mark the location for future retrieval, most of which drifted on the tide from 1 of the thousands of annonymous boats that litter this harbor with poorly secured gear.

(once, a Boston Whaler race chase boat drifted into my backwater - but after pulling it off the seawall, I returned it to the snobs at the California Yacht Club - who BTW didn't even offer me a drink, much less a sexual liaison with one of their women.

Some people have no class I suppose)

I have a Fortress FX16, rated for boats up to 36 feet stowed with its own chain leader and another 250 feet of 1/2" brait under my settee locker, just inside the companionway, and I've got a 16 lb (original, not a Lewmar POS copy) Bruce and another chain leader and 250 feet of 1/2" Brait flaked into a 5 gallon paint bucket stowed forward in the bilge next to my primary rode, and yet another 250 feet of chain / 3/8" brait flaked down into a 3 gallon bucket the aft section of my starboard cockpit locker attached to a fortress FX-7 that hangs at the ready from my stern pulpit

(my emergency "brakes" if you will)

....and I have practiced repeatedly with all of the above equipment in sand, mud, kelp, and rock, in deep water, in shallow water, in rolly roadsteads, and in protected harbors, and against lee shores in 20 knots plus of wind, both bow and stern to....

In short - I'm no dipshit.

I calculate odds carefully, recognize that there will always be a certain level of risk, then I gradually build my skills - after taking them into consideration.

And while I get scared all the time, I'm no coward.

Know how I get around LA so I can teach Architecture and critical thinking to bright young enthusiastic students for institutions who dont give a **** about them?

wfhogan's Channel - YouTube

I've been riding that motorcycle, between cars, everyday, for the past 4 years on the streets and freeways of this hell-hole town without getting killed or maimed.

(well, except for my shattered collar bone, which was the result of a 16 year old Vietnameese Beauty queen - Ms Vietnam LA 2008 - I swear, look it up - who lied and told me she was 23, then got scared and jumped off the back of my bike as I was turning it around in a driveway up off mullholland in the Hollywood hills. It was broken into 4 pieces, and it was really painfull. I dont give underage beauty queens rides on my motorcycle anymore, and I always ask for ID now too before I break out the condoms)

I'm 47, skinny, and I have a big ugly nose BTW.

Now riding a motorcycle in LA traffic requires a certain...

Focus.

I apply the same level of focus to my sailing.

....and I used to apply it to seducing models, strippers, married women, and wanna-be LA actresses.

....until it crushed my soul.

I'm selling the motorcycle when the final architectural design class I'll ever teach ends on December 15.

So if anyone wants to worry about my welfare, please worry about the next two weeks of commuting 100 miles a week I have in front me on that motorcycle, rain or shine, between those cars on te 405 freeway.

Because after that, I'm free!



Oh, and here are those shorts I invented. Someone greedy and venal should patent and manufacture them. If you are successful, I'll sue you later.... or not, because what matters to me is humanity, beauty, and freedom, not $$$$:

wfhogan's Channel - YouTube

...and just to annoy the haters a little bit more:

wfhogan's Channel - YouTube

You sock-puppets decide how strong the wind was blowing, but those are whitecaps, I'm inside the harbor, in the main channel that leads to the sea and the fetch is less than 1/2 mile. I'm double reefed, and there were gale warning flags up. Me and Marty are short tacking up the main channel - with the jib sheeted outside the shrouds, and Nomad blanketed by "Mariners Village" and a bunch of ugly beach front homes owned by vacuous actors, actors, and directors at the terminus of port tacks.

Note how she's headed on port tack as she nears the limits of the fairway, then lifted and knocked down on starboard as she emerges from the wind shadow, making her way nicely to windward.

I'm embarrassed now by that footage - The old gal can do much better to windward if given her head.

I was - and am - still learning.
Hogan is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 01:03   #230
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan

I have been sailing offshore a long time and your posts while very entertaining are also slightly worrying. Small boats can be sailed offshore safely but you need a healty respect for the sea and its power.

I realize that many of your comments are tongue in check, but there is a serious undertone in your posts that suggest you have not yet learnt this lesson.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
I'm reasonably fit, I'm trained in advanced lifesaving, and grew up surfing, so screw the life raft - I'll don my wetsuit, grab my boogie board, sat-phone, condoms, and swimfins, and at least have some fun and go surfing as my boat sinks..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
INTENTIONAL GROUNDING
Yup, you read that right. If you really cant stay off the beach, accellerate or delay the process after studing your tide tables and charts and try to run her aground on a sandy beach at or near high tide. Pick a beach that is protected from the swell as much as possible - they will exist, unless you are off the cliffs of Dover or something, and even then, I'll bet you can find a reasonably safe spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
I figure my Flicka will get rolled at some point if I take her offshore.

So what? She wont sink and she'll right herself quickliy, unlike my Laser, which was quite stable upsidedown with its mast stuck in the mud, let me tell you. If she loses her stick, I've got plenty of spare spars lashings, and cordage to rigg something up, and she sails downwind quite well, even reaches, sorta, under bare poles.
There are lots of boats looking for crew why don’t you pick a trip that will provide some rough weather and sign on. I guarantee you will learn something and if you experience some bad weather you will come back with a very different respect for the forces involved.
This respect for the sea is what will keep you safe in a small boat more than anything.

I would leave the inflatable shorts at home
__________________
noelex 77 is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 02:31   #231
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

As and experienced diver, instructor and dive supervisor operating on the GBR and Coral Sea it was interesting assessing and evaluating divers in your charge.

Invariably it was those who spoke loudly and told you how experienced and skited about their capabilities that caused most issues and needed watching over most.

The real experts and capable quitely went about their bussiness and were no hassel.

Sailing seems very similar.
__________________
downunder is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 02:52   #232
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan

<snip>

I have two Ritchie Navigator Bulkhead Compasses, the largest and most stable they make mounted to port and starboard, and I personaly learned how to compensate them to read within 1 degree of each other - and my Raymarine fluxgate compass, on all headings by sailing known headings and have double checked them against ranges.

<snip>

The GPS is most useful for determining leeway inshore - it shows course over ground, and my compasses show my heading. The difference between them is my leeway, which averages 10 to 13 degrees beating, depending on sea state and the set of any currents.

<snip>

When I anchor, I carefully survey the anchorage, for wind, swell, rocks, other boats, kelp beds, etc, and before having a couple of beers and banging my supermodel girlfreind, I make polar diagrams of the safe sectors for exiting in an emergency, and then delimit them with safe magnetic bearings from my faithful Plastimo, cross refferenced to my charts, and backed up with my eye, depth sounder, and gut instincts.

<snip>

In short - I'm no dipshit.

I calculate odds carefully, recognize that there will always be a certain level of risk, then I gradually build my skills - after taking them into consideration.

And while I get scared all the time, I'm no coward.

<snip>.

Now riding a motorcycle in LA traffic requires a certain...

Focus.

I apply the same level of focus to my sailing.

....and I used to apply it to seducing models, strippers, married women, and wanna-be LA actresses.

....until it crushed my soul.
I'm afraid my BS meter just had an overload failure.

Unplug keyboard, unsubscribe thread, there are better ways to spend time like banging my fingers with a ball peen hammer.

(Did I mention that I have the best ball peen hammer in the world and that I am a world expert at banging my fingers with it?)
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 03:25   #233
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,209
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Ahhhhhhhhhhh..... You have a ROCNA.... that explains EVERYTHING.....
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 03:43   #234
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Seriously?

The sea is a dynamic enviroment, always changing, always evolving, never the same sail twice on the same patch of water.

But I know and practice dead reckoning from time to time.

I carry paper charts and dividers, a compass, and a parallel ruler and roller plotter.

One of my prize possessions is my Plastimo hand bearing compass, which occupies a place of honor next to my $1500 Cannon IS 10x40l binoculars, (My boat is small, so I can afford the best, remember?) my other prize possession, which is backed up by a pair of Cannon 10x30 Binos, also electronically stabilized.

I have two Ritchie Navigator Bulkhead Compasses, the largest and most stable they make mounted to port and starboard, and I personaly learned how to compensate them to read within 1 degree of each other - and my Raymarine fluxgate compass, on all headings by sailing known headings and have double checked them against ranges.

I know how to take magnetic bearings to establish my position, and I know how to line up ranges.

I know how to calculate the favored tack in any given circumstance.

I plan my courses in advance - always on paper charts - with waypoints and legs, and distances and headings, written in pencil and annotated - then enter them into my (P.O.S.) Lowrance chartplotter for back-up - you know, in case my paper charts catch on fire or something.

I then write the resultant headings and estimated segment times above each compass anytime I'm in unfamiliar waters, and I steer by compass and by eye, using the GPS only to verify my speed and position, which I log, hourly, on passage in my log-book.

The GPS is most useful for determining leeway inshore - it shows course over ground, and my compasses show my heading. The difference between them is my leeway, which averages 10 to 13 degrees beating, depending on sea state and the set of any currents.

When I anchor, I carefully survey the anchorage, for wind, swell, rocks, other boats, kelp beds, etc, and before having a couple of beers and banging my supermodel girlfreind, I make polar diagrams of the safe sectors for exiting in an emergency, and then delimit them with safe magnetic bearings from my faithful Plastimo, cross refferenced to my charts, and backed up with my eye, depth sounder, and gut instincts.

I also keep my outboard in the water.

I do have a electric motor, remember? - its showing itself to be reliable in sea trials too so far, with an occasional error when I over rev or quickly try to to switch between forward and reverse. It's computer controlled (I'm a computer expert BTW) so I unplug and then re-power up the SOB and that always fixes it, just like it fixes pretty much all computer problems.

This takes around 10 seconds.

To the charge that this sophisticated electric outboard has made my boat "less safe /seaworthy" I'd point out that the electric motor eliminated a very dangerous, explosive, carcinogenic fuel funds terrorism and that has burned or exploded aboard many, many boats, leading to the loss of the boat - and worse.

FIRE or EXPLOSION is perhaps the worst thing that can happen at sea - worse even than sinking, because it will probably severely burn you, even if you manage to extinguish it, and there are few burn units at sea. You then get to enjoy a slow, agonizing death aboard your life raft, or in my case, boogie board.

I keep my sails hanked on, the sheets clewed up, and the halayards attached to both the main and jib, and I keep them uncovered until I am certain of the holding and weather at anchor - even if I cover them the next day, its loosely - to keep the UV off them - so I can hoist them quickly in an emergency.

....and I carry a Rockna 10 - which weighs 23lbs,

Rockna recommends a 13lb anchor as a primary storm anchor in marginal holding for a boat of my size and displacement.

and that bower is attached to 225 feet 1/4" HT, which I personally spliced to another 250 feet of 1/2 nylon briat purchased from Defender or Jamestown ( I forget which) when the had some 30% off sale on it or something.

I use a 3/8" nylon snubber attached to the lower bobstay chainplate with a trippled up rolling hitch, and have that sunubber wrapped around another EPDM rubber dock snubber.

I attach this compound, progressive damping, elastic snubber to my chain with a rolling hitch, and have a hook knife and retractable pole in my anchoring bag so I can cut it - and any kelp or bikinis that foul my anchor - free in an emergency.

I have bolt cutters stowed in my tool kit if I need to cut the chain in the event of windlass failure, and I have varoius fenders and buoys in my cockpit locker to mark the location for future retrieval, most of which drifted on the tide from 1 of the thousands of annonymous boats that litter this harbor with poorly secured gear.

(once, a Boston Whaler race chase boat drifted into my backwater - but after pulling it off the seawall, I returned it to the snobs at the California Yacht Club - who BTW didn't even offer me a drink, much less a sexual liaison with one of their women.

Some people have no class I suppose)

I have a Fortress FX16, rated for boats up to 36 feet stowed with its own chain leader and another 250 feet of 1/2" brait under my settee locker, just inside the companionway, and I've got a 16 lb (original, not a Lewmar POS copy) Bruce and another chain leader and 250 feet of 1/2" Brait flaked into a 5 gallon paint bucket stowed forward in the bilge next to my primary rode, and yet another 250 feet of chain / 3/8" brait flaked down into a 3 gallon bucket the aft section of my starboard cockpit locker attached to a fortress FX-7 that hangs at the ready from my stern pulpit

(my emergency "brakes" if you will)

....and I have practiced repeatedly with all of the above equipment in sand, mud, kelp, and rock, in deep water, in shallow water, in rolly roadsteads, and in protected harbors, and against lee shores in 20 knots plus of wind, both bow and stern to....

In short - I'm no dipshit.

I calculate odds carefully, recognize that there will always be a certain level of risk, then I gradually build my skills - after taking them into consideration.

And while I get scared all the time, I'm no coward.

Know how I get around LA so I can teach Architecture and critical thinking to bright young enthusiastic students for institutions who dont give a f**k about them?

wfhogan's Channel - YouTube

I've been riding that motorcycle, between cars, everyday, for the past 4 years on the streets and freeways of this hell-hole town without getting killed or maimed.

(well, except for my shattered collar bone, which was the result of a 16 year old Vietnameese Beauty queen - Ms Vietnam LA 2008 - I swear, look it up - who lied and told me she was 23, then got scared and jumped off the back of my bike as I was turning it around in a driveway up off mullholland in the Hollywood hills. It was broken into 4 pieces, and it was really painfull. I dont give underage beauty queens rides on my motorcycle anymore, and I always ask for ID now too before I break out the condoms)

I'm 47, skinny, and I have a big ugly nose BTW.

Now riding a motorcycle in LA traffic requires a certain...

Focus.

I apply the same level of focus to my sailing.

....and I used to apply it to seducing models, strippers, married women, and wanna-be LA actresses.

....until it crushed my soul.

I'm selling the motorcycle when the final architectural design class I'll ever teach ends on December 15.

So if anyone wants to worry about my welfare, please worry about the next two weeks of commuting 100 miles a week I have in front me on that motorcycle, rain or shine, between those cars on te 405 freeway.

Because after that, I'm free!



Oh, and here are those shorts I invented. Someone greedy and venal should patent and manufacture them. If you are successful, I'll sue you later.... or not, because what matters to me is humanity, beauty, and freedom, not $$$$:

wfhogan's Channel - YouTube

...and just to annoy the haters a little bit more:

wfhogan's Channel - YouTube

You sock-puppets decide how strong the wind was blowing, but those are whitecaps, I'm inside the harbor, in the main channel that leads to the sea and the fetch is less than 1/2 mile. I'm double reefed, and there were gale warning flags up. Me and Marty are short tacking up the main channel - with the jib sheeted outside the shrouds, and Nomad blanketed by "Mariners Village" and a bunch of ugly beach front homes owned by vacuous actors, actors, and directors at the terminus of port tacks.

Note how she's headed on port tack as she nears the limits of the fairway, then lifted and knocked down on starboard as she emerges from the wind shadow, making her way nicely to windward.

I'm embarrassed now by that footage - The old gal can do much better to windward if given her head.

I was - and am - still learning.

ROTFLMAO! Which hardly does justice to this excellent post. What a character! This is the most entertaining thread we've had in a while.

Come on guys, show some appreciation -- the guy has really done some work for the sake of our entertainment.

I don't know if you're just winding us up, Hogan -- I won't use the "T" word as it is considered unfriendly around here -- you're doing a masterful job of it, and my hat's off to you. You've stimulated a tremendous amount of conversation which has provided great fun for everyone.

If you're not winding us up -- well, then -- still, thank you. It's just as much fun. Where sailing is concerned, however, it must be said that you are a -- what was the word you used? Dipshit? Yes. You are the most dangerous kind of sailor who knows extremely little but has an extraordinary amount of confidence. As several people have mentioned, you should be about 10,000x more humble in front of the sea, be careful, try to gain some experience and learn something before you do more than daysail in the bay in good weather.

If you ever do get caught on a lee shore in any weather -- the original topic of this thread -- a something which really can happen, notwithstanding what some people have said -- none of the techniques you have dreamed up in your armchair after the fourth rum & coke will save you, with the result that you -- and your passengers -- will likely die. Neither throwing out anchors, nor intentionally running your boat aground (as a surfer, you should know better what storm waves do on the beach, and imagine what will happen to your boat when it hits the beach in a storm), will save you.

You would also do well to gain a clue about what your boat can do upwind -- you don't know your own boat until you have some feel for this. You wrote somewhere that your boat can do 80 miles made good a day upwind -- I say, in your dreams. In fact, I will bet you pink slips -- my boat, which costs about 20-30 times what yours does, against your boat (I would love to have a Flicka -- gorgeous boat! is it a Crealock design? -- at my lake house) -- that you will never, ever under any circumstances, even ideal wind conditions, even if you put Kevlar sails on your boat -- ever make any 80 miles made good dead upwind noon to noon in the ocean. Anyone who has made any kind of offshore passage upwind knows this. The theoretical absolute maximum VMG upwind your boat can do -- with its 5.7 knots hull speed and 120 degrees ideal tacking angle (at max VMG) is slightly over 3 knots or 72 miles. That means that if you do half of that over a real 24 hour period -- 36 miles -- you have had a superb day's run. That's because (1) nobody, and not on any boat, not even Ella McArthur in a hot race boat, can sail at hull speed hard on the wind for 24 hours; and (2) ideal conditions for a 20 foot boat never exist in the open ocean; and (3) no one ever achieves the theoretical ideal tacking angle over more than 30 minutes anyway.

Why do I bother proving all this to you? Well! It's the least I can do after all the entertainment I have gotten out of your posts!!


One footnote: of all the outlandish things you posted, one thing of yours actually got me thinking. That was -- using your surfboard as a liferaft. I'm not a surfer, so my knowledge is limited to what I have seen in movies. But it seems to me that a surfboard is the only kind of floating conveyance which will not kill you in heavy surf. The waves surfers have fun in, will turn a sailboat into matchsticks. And I think even a good liferaft would be ripped to shreds. But if you're a skilled surfer and have a board with you -- could you abandon ship to your board and surf ashore, in a storm? You know, I can't prove that that is such a stupid idea. I wonder if it's been tried?
__________________
Dockhead is online now  
Old 01-12-2011, 05:25   #235
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
Hud3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Island Packet 380, now sold
Posts: 8,929
Images: 49
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...But if you're a skilled surfer and have a board with you -- could you abandon ship to your board and surf ashore, in a storm? You know, I can't prove that that is such a stupid idea. I wonder if it's been tried?
Yes, it has, with tragic results. Hogan, being an expert surfer, will know who Eddie Aikau is, I'm sure...

Quote:
The Hokule'a [a traditional Hawaiian sailing canoe] left the Hawaiian Islands on March 16, 1978. The double-hulled voyaging canoe developed a leak in one of the hulls and later capsized in stormy weather about twelve miles south of the island of Molokai. In an attempt to get to land to save his crew and the Hokule'a, Aikau paddled toward Lanai on his surfboard. Hours later a commercial airplane spotted the Hokule'a and the rest of the crew was soon rescued by the U.S. Coast Guard. Aikau was missing at sea. Despite great search efforts "Eddie" was never seen again.
source: Eddie Aikau

Eddie was an iconic surfer and lifeguard at Waimea Bay on Oahu. Probably a notch or two up from Hogan's skill level...


__________________
Hud
Hud3 is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 06:02   #236
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Winds just hit 60 knots at USC - that's Beaufort 11 - looks like it's gonna be wild night here in LA.

Btw, the marine forcast only calls for a "Gale warning" with 35 knot winds.

Like I said before, these events are difficult to forecast accurately, and it was one like this, though not as strong, that caught me out in 2009.

FWIW.

Thank you. I said that earlier too. Sometimes you get warning -- and sometimes you don't. This one they knew was coming, but often you have very little warning.

Neighbor of mine saw a storm coming up on him fast. While he was at the mast reefing, a huge gust (he estimates 50 mph and he's experienced) caught him and just about laid the boat down.

He's here to tell the tale because he had a tether on and wrapped it around the mast and re-clipped it to his D-rings. He still got knocked off the cabin top and halfway through the lifelines before the tether stopped him.

Scared the hell out of him, and he was pretty bruised, but alive to tell the tale. Four boats turtled, according to him, in that storm. He doesn't know if they were all sailboats or not.

Reefed, his boat was able to handle it, and he chose to sail rather than anchor. He did have his engine on as a backup.

I was on land but near that storm, which stayed off shore. It did come up pretty fast. A chance of storms was forecast, but if you only sailed here in spring and summer when there was no chance of storms you just woudn't sail then.

That's the choice I made when I first started out. When I was a rank beginner, I didn't leave the dock on those days. As I learned more, I stayed very close to home. But that's not always possible, say, for people who have to travel 15 miles to get to sailing water.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 06:09   #237
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by nial View Post
People who answer Hogan's posts with irritation or dismissiveness can't know of his great contribution to marine safety gear. When he used to post on the Yahoo Flicka site, before he was banned from posting there, he wrote a lot about the inflatable shorts he was developing. I thought it was brilliant. You fall in the water and your ass can't drown. A guy who can come up with an idea like that has got to be exceptional.
nial
Wow, an owner of a Ficka that was actually banned from the owners association!!??? Speaks well to why this thread has gone the way it has..

And c'mon no one wants their a$$ to drown....
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 06:53   #238
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan, please please please, post a video with you showing off your inflatable short prototype! I also want to know if it's auto-inflating or if you first need to eat beans or what other mechanism of inflation it uses!



cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 08:25   #239
Registered User
 
mbianka's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,125
Images: 1
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Stanton View Post
My viewpoint on this is just more of a practical thing than a do or die survival thing.

Most Pacific Northwest sailors are out for the day or weekend or a week. Sure you can sit around waiting for ideal weather to be safe with your low HP electric motor.

If you do that though, you'll miss a lot of good days, and you'll get stranded a lot, because weather changes unexpectedly. Which is fine if you're retired or rich, but most active sailors I know are neither.

Two months ago 20 boats from my club anchored in Vaughn Bay, WA. All was quiet til a squall blew through at 2am, just shy of 50 knots. Some people dragged anchor but everyone got reset well and ended up safe.

In the morning it was blowing a steady 25-35 from the south. The exit (click for Google Map) is very narrow and very shallow and leaves you 20 feet from a lee shore to claw your way off.

Was it a life and death situation? No. Plenty of shelter in the bay, everyone was now properly anchored, and anyone could easily have waited for better weather, in fact I think a few boats did. But staying for most people means missing other appointments, missing work, changing plans, getting someone to watch the kids an extra day, etc.

A tiny motor or no motor would leave the boat less than ten seconds of uncontrolled drifting from running aground. Sure it's possible to get clear that way, but what a pointless risk! A good engine gives you a practical option that a little electric motor doesn't. Head out the entrance, point into the muck, get off the lee shore, and be home in time for dinner. This is what pretty much every boat in the group did til we got out of that blow.

Specific to my boat, I find that it's hard to make any real miles into anything above about 22kts.

PNW sailing is all about channels, which means that MOST of the time, the wind is either right behind you, or right in your face.

Downwind through a channel, bliss. Crack a beer.

Upwind through a channel, two new challenges:

1) Tacking constantly. Lots of work but not a huge deal unless it's quite narrow.

2) Currents. Two options:
a) Upwind against significant current: Your tacks compress so close together that you are making very little headway.
b) Upwind with significant current: Wind against current whips up the chop and slows the boat, and you are making very little headway.

You can always bravely fight through it, wait for less current, wait for better conditions, etc, but a lot of times, when it's cold and rainy and foggy and you've made 5 miles in the last 3 hours and your crew is cranky, it's a pretty attractive option to fire up the Yanmar and push through.
Arch:

Such negativity about EP. From my personal experience is unwarrented. I've plowed into 20 to 25 knot winds in narrower entrances than what you experienced with my electric propulsion system with no problems. I've also dragged anchor in a blow and reset with electric propulsion without incident too. The difference is electric propulsion does it quieter and with much less vibration. I've also found my electric propulsion system to be more reliable than my diesel was and requires much less maintenance. This site has a number of posts where diesel engines failed just when they were needed most. So IMO totally relying on them is really asking for trouble. There a lot of ways they can fail. Guess how I know. It's the reason why I decided to repower with electric propulsion. Yeah, it was leap of faith at the time but, I've never regreted it. As far as bucking currents I did not do that even when I had my diesel. I don't walk up down escalators either. I could but, to me it's a waste of energy. I plan my trips and sails accordingly and make adjustments to the changing conditions. I learned the times I've seemed to get into the most trouble is when I got into a "gotta, gotta, gotta" mode. So I try avoid getting into that situation. My sail goes up faster now too because I no longer have to run the diesel to make sure it has warmed up enough before shutting it down. I don't begrudge someone who wants to stick with diesel. But, for me converting to electric propulsion has made my time spent on board a much more enjoyable experience all around.
__________________
Capt. Mike
mbianka is offline  
Old 01-12-2011, 08:35   #240
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hudson Valley N.Y.
Boat: contessa 32
Posts: 826
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

"The amount of passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information (or experience) available"
__________________

__________________
mrohr is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:55.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.