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Old 30-11-2011, 13:08   #211
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

"Here's another quiz:

if you are 30 miles out in a gale and are making a negative VMG of .5 knots to windward, how long can you stay off the beach?

answer?

60 hours."


Well, here's a quiz for you ...

If you're 30 miles out in a gale and making a negtive VMG of .5 knots to windward, how certain can you be that things will stay that way?

How certain can you be that you're where you think you are if your electronics fail? How sure can you be of how quickly you're moving toward shore under those circumstances?

How likely would it be to be moving at only .5 knot toward shore in a storm?

How certain can you be that water deep enough to keep you safe exists to leeward for all 30 miles?

What if you're holding yourself off the coast with your motor and your motor fails?

What if you anchor, and when the storm is over you have to cut your anchor loose to get away because it was so dug in you couldn't get it up, and then you get caught in another gale?
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Old 30-11-2011, 14:31   #212
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Back to the origional question as the OP asked..
And some might call me an "old salt"..
I'm 59 and been sailing from the time I was in the Cub Scouts (lost count of the miles years ago) Sailed and Raced Offshore on the West Coast of the US from Alaska in the North to Mexico in the south..
The entire coast is a "Lee Shore" ...
And the amount of times I've had to "Claw Off A Lee Shore in a Gale".. Thinking back..NONE..
did I get that right, let me think again, yep, thats right, NONE..
The reason being, I not only value my life, but my wifes and the boat I sail upon..
I carry charts of the area I sail, I watch the weather, and I always have an escape route..
Not saying I havent been in bad weather, as I've had more than My share, but I have never had the idea of grounding my boat on a beach because of bad weather..
As for using the motor,
Thats part of my boat and wouldnt be without it.. Dont know about anybody elses sails but mine dont come equepted with brakes.. We never enter an unknown anchorage under sail, and most of the time we drop the sails well outside the anchorage and motor in..and many times, we've dropped anchor outside the anchorage (if not known) unloaded the dink and rowed in with a lead line to check the depth..
I have more control of my boat, when moving slow under the power of the motor..
our ground tackle,
we carry 400 feet of 3/8s chain in the forward locker, and an additional 200 in the rear locker.. we also carry 4 coils of 200 feet of 5/8 rode.. and a total of 4 different anchors.. and why, because I want to...
Our boat is very well equepted for cruising, and a pleasure to live on, (and we have for the last 10 years) and will continue to do so..
Be good seamanship or not, My main concern is the responsibilty to keep my wife, myself, and my boat out of harms way..
Clawing off a lee shore in a gale is one of those concerns I dont worry about, as I dont put myself in that position in the first place
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Old 30-11-2011, 15:18   #213
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
"Here's another quiz:

if you are 30 miles out in a gale and are making a negative VMG of .5 knots to windward, how long can you stay off the beach?

answer?

60 hours."


Well, here's a quiz for you ...

If you're 30 miles out in a gale and making a negtive VMG of .5 knots to windward, how certain can you be that things will stay that way?

How certain can you be that you're where you think you are if your electronics fail? How sure can you be of how quickly you're moving toward shore under those circumstances?

How likely would it be to be moving at only .5 knot toward shore in a storm?

How certain can you be that water deep enough to keep you safe exists to leeward for all 30 miles?

What if you're holding yourself off the coast with your motor and your motor fails?

What if you anchor, and when the storm is over you have to cut your anchor loose to get away because it was so dug in you couldn't get it up, and then you get caught in another gale?

OK, well:

Cruisers rarely put themselves in a position like this. The more experienced you get, it appears, the 'luckier' you get. Gales dont spring up instantly, they are well forecast , even if you look out a window! We have a 4 day forecast and unless you are crossing oceans, 4 days is plenty. You would be the next Darwin Awards contender if you knowingly put yourself in the situation which has been suggested.

A special mindset of survivability / self reliance and fatalism is part of the makeup. You make your decisions and you live (or not) with it. If you dont , then naturally you expect some poor sucker to risk their life in order to 'rescue' you.

Anchoring off a lee shore in a gale is a last ditched effort, knowing it can only hurt the boat or fail.

I chose a sailboat which can sail safely and effectively. I have an oversized, maintained engine, great fuel filtration, plenty of fuel. This reduces the odds to the limits my intelligence [or stupidity]

Naturally the level and volume of bar room BS spouted forth is inversely proportional to the experience and ability. Just dont listen to their bragging, it is obviously BS.
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Old 30-11-2011, 15:23   #214
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pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

ROFL..... I'm getting to love this thread...
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Old 30-11-2011, 15:42   #215
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
ROFL..... I'm getting to love this thread...
Did I just fall for the joke.....
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Old 30-11-2011, 15:44   #216
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Wow is this guy for real? I guess if you want to stir it up you did. Congrats.
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Old 30-11-2011, 16:08   #217
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

My viewpoint on this is just more of a practical thing than a do or die survival thing.

Most Pacific Northwest sailors are out for the day or weekend or a week. Sure you can sit around waiting for ideal weather to be safe with your low HP electric motor.

If you do that though, you'll miss a lot of good days, and you'll get stranded a lot, because weather changes unexpectedly. Which is fine if you're retired or rich, but most active sailors I know are neither.

Two months ago 20 boats from my club anchored in Vaughn Bay, WA. All was quiet til a squall blew through at 2am, just shy of 50 knots. Some people dragged anchor but everyone got reset well and ended up safe.

In the morning it was blowing a steady 25-35 from the south. The exit (click for Google Map) is very narrow and very shallow and leaves you 20 feet from a lee shore to claw your way off.

Was it a life and death situation? No. Plenty of shelter in the bay, everyone was now properly anchored, and anyone could easily have waited for better weather, in fact I think a few boats did. But staying for most people means missing other appointments, missing work, changing plans, getting someone to watch the kids an extra day, etc.

A tiny motor or no motor would leave the boat less than ten seconds of uncontrolled drifting from running aground. Sure it's possible to get clear that way, but what a pointless risk! A good engine gives you a practical option that a little electric motor doesn't. Head out the entrance, point into the muck, get off the lee shore, and be home in time for dinner. This is what pretty much every boat in the group did til we got out of that blow.

Specific to my boat, I find that it's hard to make any real miles into anything above about 22kts.

PNW sailing is all about channels, which means that MOST of the time, the wind is either right behind you, or right in your face.

Downwind through a channel, bliss. Crack a beer.

Upwind through a channel, two new challenges:

1) Tacking constantly. Lots of work but not a huge deal unless it's quite narrow.

2) Currents. Two options:
a) Upwind against significant current: Your tacks compress so close together that you are making very little headway.
b) Upwind with significant current: Wind against current whips up the chop and slows the boat, and you are making very little headway.

You can always bravely fight through it, wait for less current, wait for better conditions, etc, but a lot of times, when it's cold and rainy and foggy and you've made 5 miles in the last 3 hours and your crew is cranky, it's a pretty attractive option to fire up the Yanmar and push through.
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Old 30-11-2011, 16:29   #218
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Look - I'm just curious:

What percentage of sailors have ever been caught on a lee shore in a storm so severe that thier ground tackle (You do carry an oversize storm anchor with at least 400 feet of rode so you can set and hold the hook in deep water, and you know how to use it, right?)
Look - I'm just curious as to how you can carry that on a 20ft flicka
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Old 30-11-2011, 16:50   #219
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Back to the origional question as the OP asked..
And some might call me an "old salt"..
I'm 59 and been sailing from the time I was in the Cub Scouts (lost count of the miles years ago) Sailed and Raced Offshore on the West Coast of the US from Alaska in the North to Mexico in the south..
The entire coast is a "Lee Shore" ...
And the amount of times I've had to "Claw Off A Lee Shore in a Gale".. Thinking back..NONE..
did I get that right, let me think again, yep, thats right, NONE..
The reason being, I not only value my life, but my wifes and the boat I sail upon..
I carry charts of the area I sail, I watch the weather, and I always have an escape route..
Not saying I havent been in bad weather, as I've had more than My share, but I have never had the idea of grounding my boat on a beach because of bad weather..
As for using the motor,
Thats part of my boat and wouldnt be without it.. Dont know about anybody elses sails but mine dont come equepted with brakes.. We never enter an unknown anchorage under sail, and most of the time we drop the sails well outside the anchorage and motor in..and many times, we've dropped anchor outside the anchorage (if not known) unloaded the dink and rowed in with a lead line to check the depth..
I have more control of my boat, when moving slow under the power of the motor..
our ground tackle,
we carry 400 feet of 3/8s chain in the forward locker, and an additional 200 in the rear locker.. we also carry 4 coils of 200 feet of 5/8 rode.. and a total of 4 different anchors.. and why, because I want to...
Our boat is very well equepted for cruising, and a pleasure to live on, (and we have for the last 10 years) and will continue to do so..
Be good seamanship or not, My main concern is the responsibilty to keep my wife, myself, and my boat out of harms way..
Clawing off a lee shore in a gale is one of those concerns I dont worry about, as I dont put myself in that position in the first place

Exactly.
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Old 30-11-2011, 16:54   #220
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by rusky View Post
OK, well:

Cruisers rarely put themselves in a position like this. The more experienced you get, it appears, the 'luckier' you get. Gales dont spring up instantly, they are well forecast , even if you look out a window! We have a 4 day forecast and unless you are crossing oceans, 4 days is plenty. You would be the next Darwin Awards contender if you knowingly put yourself in the situation which has been suggested.

A special mindset of survivability / self reliance and fatalism is part of the makeup. You make your decisions and you live (or not) with it. If you dont , then naturally you expect some poor sucker to risk their life in order to 'rescue' you.

Anchoring off a lee shore in a gale is a last ditched effort, knowing it can only hurt the boat or fail.

I chose a sailboat which can sail safely and effectively. I have an oversized, maintained engine, great fuel filtration, plenty of fuel. This reduces the odds to the limits my intelligence [or stupidity]

Naturally the level and volume of bar room BS spouted forth is inversely proportional to the experience and ability. Just dont listen to their bragging, it is obviously BS.

Here in Florida, big, bad storms pop up unexpectedly all the time at certain times of years. It is QUITE possible here to be unexpectedly caught by a bad storm. And, you could be headed in when it happens and not be all that far from shore. Last sporing I saw the storm I got caught in an hour before it caught me. There was no way to avoid it and my only strategy was to know what to do.

Interestingly, I had a supposedly experienced sailor on my boat who kept urging me to move closer to shore. When I declined he started dramatically reading the depth sounder out loud, as if a boat with a 4' draft was suddenly going to run aground in 9' of water. I just ignored him.

I was in very familiar waters, and I had motored or sailed all over that bay with my depth sounder on and knew the chart was accurate.

He won't be sailing with me again.
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Old 30-11-2011, 17:01   #221
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
Look - I'm just curious as to how you can carry that on a 20ft flicka
A Flicka would easily hold 400 ft of rode, especially the pliant 8-plait kind, which stores very space-efficiently.
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Old 30-11-2011, 19:15   #222
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

just everyone's amusement, the wind on my annemometer reads 3 knots right now, and it's gusting to 21 knots, in my sheltered location here in the Marina.

Up at USC Sciences accross the street, they just recorded 40knots, or Beaufort 9 from the NNE.

I decided not to go sailing today because I read the following NOAA forecast:

WINDS...NORTHEAST 25 TO 40 MPH WITH GUSTS TO 60 MPH BELOW PASSES AND CANYONS FROM MALIBU TO THE HOLLYWOOD HILLS. * TIMING...WINDS WILL INCREASE THIS EVENING AND THEN REMAIN VERY STRONG AND GUSTY THROUGH FRIDAY MORNING...EXCEPT FOR A PERIOD OF WEAKER WINDS THURSDAY AFTERNOON AND EARLY THURSDAY EVENING. * IMPACTS...VERY STRONG WINDS WILL BE CAPABLE OF DOWNING TREES AND POWER LINES...KNOCKING DOWN OUTDOOR OBJECTS... CREATING FLYING DEBRIS...AND CAUSING DANGEROUS DRIVING CONDITIONS ESPECIALLY FOR HIGH PROFILE VEHICLES.

But I already knew a Santa Ana was brewing because things seemed wierd here yesterday. Hard to describe, but the weather just felt wierd.

An hour ago the relative humidity was 90%

right now it's 30%

the temperature was 58 at 4:00pm, and right now it's 63.

Barometer is falling, and it stands at 29.78in

oops, wind just dropped to 2 knots. Wait, now it's 7. 3 again. 18 knots.

When it exceeds 20, my shrouds start ringing.

A wise sailor pays attention to the weather.
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Old 30-11-2011, 19:32   #223
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
just everyone's amusement, the wind on my annemometer reads 3 knots right now, and it's gusting to 21 knots, in my sheltered location here in the Marina.

Up at USC Sciences accross the street, they just recorded 40knots, or Beaufort 9 from the NNE.

I decided not to go sailing today because I read the following NOAA forecast:

WINDS...NORTHEAST 25 TO 40 MPH WITH GUSTS TO 60 MPH BELOW PASSES AND CANYONS FROM MALIBU TO THE HOLLYWOOD HILLS. * TIMING...WINDS WILL INCREASE THIS EVENING AND THEN REMAIN VERY STRONG AND GUSTY THROUGH FRIDAY MORNING...EXCEPT FOR A PERIOD OF WEAKER WINDS THURSDAY AFTERNOON AND EARLY THURSDAY EVENING. * IMPACTS...VERY STRONG WINDS WILL BE CAPABLE OF DOWNING TREES AND POWER LINES...KNOCKING DOWN OUTDOOR OBJECTS... CREATING FLYING DEBRIS...AND CAUSING DANGEROUS DRIVING CONDITIONS ESPECIALLY FOR HIGH PROFILE VEHICLES.

But I already knew a Santa Ana was brewing because things seemed wierd here yesterday. Hard to describe, but the weather just felt wierd.

An hour ago the relative humidity was 90%

right now it's 30%

the temperature was 58 at 4:00pm, and right now it's 63.

Barometer is falling, and it stands at 29.78in

oops, wind just dropped to 2 knots. Wait, now it's 7. 3 again. 18 knots.

When it exceeds 20, my shrouds start ringing.

A wise sailor pays attention to the weather.

Yeah. That wind was forecast. I notice LA weather because my in-laws lived there.

On my boat if the shrouds are singing to me it's past time to reef.
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Old 30-11-2011, 19:45   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan
just everyone's amusement, the wind on my annemometer reads 3 knots right now, and it's gusting to 21 knots, in my sheltered location here in the Marina.

Up at USC Sciences accross the street, they just recorded 40knots, or Beaufort 9 from the NNE.

I decided not to go sailing today because I read the following NOAA forecast:

WINDS...NORTHEAST 25 TO 40 MPH WITH GUSTS TO 60 MPH BELOW PASSES AND CANYONS FROM MALIBU TO THE HOLLYWOOD HILLS. * TIMING...WINDS WILL INCREASE THIS EVENING AND THEN REMAIN VERY STRONG AND GUSTY THROUGH FRIDAY MORNING...EXCEPT FOR A PERIOD OF WEAKER WINDS THURSDAY AFTERNOON AND EARLY THURSDAY EVENING. * IMPACTS...VERY STRONG WINDS WILL BE CAPABLE OF DOWNING TREES AND POWER LINES...KNOCKING DOWN OUTDOOR OBJECTS... CREATING FLYING DEBRIS...AND CAUSING DANGEROUS DRIVING CONDITIONS ESPECIALLY FOR HIGH PROFILE VEHICLES.

Seems like a good opportunity to go practice reefing...

Getting back to MDR and docked with no motor would be exciting...

Oh, and to show I am not a small boat hater, here is my son sailing my brother's Force 5 in SFO. My brother and I have sailed this boat in the pacific out of long beach. We got really wet and many strange looks. Probably because we were on a lee shore without a motor or 65 pound anchor and 300 feet of chain...
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Old 30-11-2011, 19:47   #225
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Winds just hit 60 knots at USC - that's Beaufort 11 - looks like it's gonna be wild night here in LA.

Btw, the marine forcast only calls for a "Gale warning" with 35 knot winds.

Like I said before, these events are difficult to forecast accurately, and it was one like this, though not as strong, that caught me out in 2009.

FWIW.
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