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Rakuflames · 29-11-2011, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bash

It's not the Flicka taking the heat. It's just the rhetoric.

Well that's just silly, sorry. It's a message board. Few people here are professional writers.

Someone DID say that a Flicka doesn't point up well. Well, in my experience they point up just fine if the right sails are on them, tuned properly, etc. Who knows what the situation was on the boat the critic sailed on.

I have NO problem with back winding in light wind. It's not like that strategy was invented for Flickas.

I have a huge problem if we start picking posts apart because of "rhetoric." This isn't a speech class. It's a place to talk about sailing and boats.

Rakuflames · 29-11-2011, 13:24

"Oh pls have mercy... full keels with stout keel hung rudders, backwinding to tack etc... reminds me of the traditional sailing barges in Holland.... could brew coffee while starting the tacking and finish drinking a cup before sheeting the jib over to the other side."

Oh Go have mercy yourself. I've sailed on a Flicka. It's a great sailing boat, handles well, points well, handles rough water well, points up well. If that wasn't someone else's experience, maybe they weren't on a well rigged boat.

highseas · 29-11-2011, 13:24

I remember when a local boatbuilder/designer who's work I admire,used to share his wealth of knowledge here on CF,until he got tired of people slagging his character.

TeddyDiver · 29-11-2011, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by highseas

I remember when a local boatbuilder/designer who's work I admire,used to share his wealth of knowledge here on CF,until he got tired of people slagging his character.

Sorry don't know your likings.. but speaking about a person with "character" makes me think of Brent..

David_Old_Jersey · 30-11-2011, 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hogan

I plan to die of cancer on some beautiful tropical beach surrounded by mokeys, parrots, and beautiful, naked teenage Thai hookers - just like Moitessier.

A man with ambition.........

**Dockhead** · 30-11-2011, 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Well that's just silly, sorry. It's a message board. Few people here are professional writers.

Someone DID say that a Flicka doesn't point up well. Well, in my experience they point up just fine if the right sails are on them, tuned properly, etc. Who knows what the situation was on the boat the critic sailed on.

. . .

I have a huge problem if we start picking posts apart because of "rhetoric." This isn't a speech class. It's a place to talk about sailing and boats.

When people were talking about "rhetoric", it was not about the quality of writing. It was about the bombastic way in which the OP presumed to give lectures on seamanship to the collected CF'ers (with millions of sea miles among them), lectures which were mostly nonsense notwithstanding the very strong way they were delivered.

The OP wanted to validate to himself his own decision to cruise without a motor, and his thesis was that the rest of us only need motors because we are too stupid to use our anchors (which are, he said, 1000x more powerful than our motors), and besides that don't know how to short-tack.

Of course this irritated the members to no end, and I think that the OP was actually dealt with fairly politely, under the circumstances. The pointing ability of the Flicka came up when various people (including myself) tried to explain to the OP that especially in his boat, a lee shore would be become quite dangerous quite early in the development of any kind of weather.

In my humble opinion, the OP is entirely clueless about sailing in weather and covering distances to windward, does not understand the capabilities of his own boat, and does not really understand the dangers of a lee shore -- especially to him. He thinks that he can sail 80 miles a day dead up wind in a storm, and he thinks that small boats are less affected by storm waves than big ones, because they "bob up and down".

Well, if he has taken any of our feedback on board, this might actually save his life, so I think it's good that he was not just politely ignored.

I think he gained a lot of sympathy, however, in one of his last posts where he poured his heart out about being a surfer and escaping from the rat race in Baja with his surf board and plenty of condoms -- go, Hogan! Now that's a dream we can all support!!! Don't forget to post photos of your adventures -- remember -- without pictures, it didn't happen!

And as to sailing without an engine -- well, no one specifically criticized you for this. Your boat will sail better without the weight. I don't know why you were trying so desperately hard to validate this. It's your decision to take on board the extra risks. Just be damned careful, because you give up one of your most powerful items of safety gear. You think you're far too smart to get caught near a lee shore in a storm -- you said so much in one of your posts -- I think you said something like -- what idiot doesn't see storms weeks ahead by looking at GFS weather. Well, you will understand, after more time at sea, that WindGuru is actually not infallible (gasp!), and that unpredicted storms blow up all the time. And that the wind sometimes shifts at the same time, creating a dangerous lee shore out of nothing in the twinkle of an eye.

If you hang out on CF and ask some questions of some of the old salts around here, instead of giving them lectures on seamanship, you will learn a lot of value for when you do cut the dock lines and head to Baja! Maybe even something which will save your life!

Oh, and look up Zeehag when you get there, and give her our best

**s/v Jedi** · 30-11-2011, 04:20

I advice the OP to do a 1,000+ nm upwind off shore trip and then tell us how many miles through water it took him and his avg. VMG.

We put more than 2,500 nm under the keel for the Miami - BVI trip. That's a lot of tacking

I also have a story about a couple aboard their 30'ish foot long full keeled sailboat. They made the trip from Colombia to Curacao. Every night at sundown, the wind would pick up and waves grow up to 20'. Every morning they were 10 nm FURTHER from Curacao than the night before, effectively travelling backwards. It became so bad that the lady was crying every night and it took them 4 weeks to reach their destination. That is the reality of upwind sailing in storm conditions. It gets worse in smaller boats.

cheers,
Nick.

Paul L · 30-11-2011, 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

When people were talking about "rhetoric", it was not about the quality of writing. It was about the bombastic way in which the OP presumed to give lectures on seamanship to the collected CF'ers (with millions of sea miles among them), lectures which were mostly nonsense notwithstanding the very strong way they were delivered.

The OP wanted to validate to himself his own decision to cruise without a motor, and his thesis was that the rest of us only need motors because we are too stupid to use our anchors (which are, he said, 1000x more powerful than our motors), and besides that don't know how to short-tack.
......

Well put and still Moderate.

Rakuflames · 30-11-2011, 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

When people were talking about "rhetoric", it was not about the quality of writing. It was about the bombastic way in which the OP presumed to give lectures on seamanship to the collected CF'ers (with millions of sea miles among them), lectures which were mostly nonsense notwithstanding the very strong way they were delivered.

The OP wanted to validate to himself his own decision to cruise without a motor, and his thesis was that the rest of us only need motors because we are too stupid to use our anchors (which are, he said, 1000x more powerful than our motors), and besides that don't know how to short-tack.

Of course this irritated the members to no end, and I think that the OP was actually dealt with fairly politely, under the circumstances. The pointing ability of the Flicka came up when various people (including myself) tried to explain to the OP that especially in his boat, a lee shore would be become quite dangerous quite early in the development of any kind of weather.

In my humble opinion, the OP is entirely clueless about sailing in weather and covering distances to windward, does not understand the capabilities of his own boat, and does not really understand the dangers of a lee shore -- especially to him. He thinks that he can sail 80 miles a day dead up wind in a storm, and he thinks that small boats are less affected by storm waves than big ones, because they "bob up and down".

Well, if he has taken any of our feedback on board, this might actually save his life, so I think it's good that he was not just politely ignored.

I think he gained a lot of sympathy, however, in one of his last posts where he poured his heart out about being a surfer and escaping from the rat race in Baja with his surf board and plenty of condoms -- go, Hogan! Now that's a dream we can all support!!! Don't forget to post photos of your adventures -- remember -- without pictures, it didn't happen!

And as to sailing without an engine -- well, no one specifically criticized you for this. Your boat will sail better without the weight. I don't know why you were trying so desperately hard to validate this. It's your decision to take on board the extra risks. Just be damned careful, because you give up one of your most powerful items of safety gear. You think you're far too smart to get caught near a lee shore in a storm -- you said so much in one of your posts -- I think you said something like -- what idiot doesn't see storms weeks ahead by looking at GFS weather. Well, you will understand, after more time at sea, that WindGuru is actually not infallible (gasp!), and that unpredicted storms blow up all the time. And that the wind sometimes shifts at the same time, creating a dangerous lee shore out of nothing in the twinkle of an eye.

If you hang out on CF and ask some questions of some of the old salts around here, instead of giving them lectures on seamanship, you will learn a lot of value for when you do cut the dock lines and head to Baja! Maybe even something which will save your life!

Oh, and look up Zeehag when you get there, and give her our best

I was irritated by the OP also. According to the OP's standards I don't belong on the water, and so would never get to those skills. I have great resspect for what my engine can do for me. In particular, it allowed me to learn to sail by starting out with the easier sailing stuff. I didn't have to sail my boat in and out of my slip -- which, by the way, is expressly forbidden in my marina contract because if something goes wrong, other people's boats can be damaged. The yacht club I belong to has the same rule.

But I don't think we need to jump on either such posters or their posts. We can just call out "BS" -- civilly. No one will please everyone with the way they express themselves. I've been on a board where a culture developed of nit-picking every post, especially if the two people tend to irritate each other.

Personally I urge people to take that approach. Now we have someone complaining about sock puppets. I've seen that phenomenon online and I don't see it here. I would hate to see someone booted off the forums based on suspicions.

**Dockhead** · 30-11-2011, 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I was irritated by the OP also. According to the OP's standards I don't belong on the water, and so would never get to those skills. I have great resspect for what my engine can do for me. In particular, it allowed me to learn to sail by starting out with the easier sailing stuff. I didn't have to sail my boat in and out of my slip -- which, by the way, is expressly forbidden in my marina contract because if something goes wrong, other people's boats can be damaged. The yacht club I belong to has the same rule.

But I don't think we need to jump on either such posters or their posts. We can just call out "BS" -- civilly. No one will please everyone with the way they express themselves. I've been on a board where a culture developed of nit-picking every post, especially if the two people tend to irritate each other.

Personally I urge people to take that approach. Now we have someone complaining about sock puppets. I've seen that phenomenon online and I don't see it here. I would hate to see someone booted off the forums based on suspicions.

Well, we do take the "be nice" rule seriously -- it's the one really holy rule around here. So I was also concerned about the sock puppet allegation you are talking about, and I actually reported it (we had already checked him out and already knew that the allegation was false).

But being nice doesn't mean not calling "BS" when the BS is waist-deep. That is basically what was done here -- and pretty civilly, I think.

**s/v Jedi** · 30-11-2011, 06:19

The problem here is that both sides are partially correct and so this can be a never ending discussion.

What I have meant to explain but obviously didn't manage (I seem to have that trouble lately) is that for anybody out there long enough, there will be situation that require the combined effort of sails and engine. Really, motorsailing is the big missing thing in this thread. Think equal speed but pointing 20-30 degree higher. In extreme cases, angles less than 20 degree to true wind are possible and not even the newest racer will equal that.

Motorsailing off a lee shore has at least double the chance of success than either sailing in a small boat or just motoring.

Saying that ships (or yachts) with just sails managed just fine in their days is flawed too, because many of those got into serious trouble because of their limited options and seamen were drowning by the dozens a day worldwide.

cheers,
Nick.

naggi · 30-11-2011, 09:14

[QUOTE=Ex-Calif;819709]I absolutely hate getting caught 3 miles inland in a gale. The wheels on my boat are just too small to ride out the speed bumps at the piggly-wiggly.

Hell Ex-Calif, did you set the craypots

Rakuflames · 30-11-2011, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, we do take the "be nice" rule seriously -- it's the one really holy rule around here. So I was also concerned about the sock puppet allegation you are talking about, and I actually reported it (we had already checked him out and already knew that the allegation was false).

But being nice doesn't mean not calling "BS" when the BS is waist-deep. That is basically what was done here -- and pretty civilly, I think.

I think that's what is important -- the civility.

Hogan · 30-11-2011, 11:11

My small boat chuavanism is tounge in cheek, and a product of big boat biggotry. The boat doesnt matter - my all time favorite boat was my Naples Sabot - it was easy to sail, comfortable for me and the cute married chick who was banging me behind her husband's back because he abused her (she went back to him because I treated her well) and it easily held a sixpack full of Coors light.

I kept it in the yard beside my moms house, and used to throw it in the back of my pick-up truck whenever the urge struck, which was pretty much constantly.

The Laser was fun too, but required a LOT more focus than the sabot, especially downwind at the entrance to Alimitos bay, where it liked to "death roll" right in front a dozen stink potters bearing downd on me. Jibing that boat was terrifying : Sometimes it was so windy I'd wear her round through the wind to avoid a dunking.

The worst boat I owned was a beat up Coronado 14. Things broke every single time I took her out, no matter how careful I was becuase it was a cheaply built boat.

the final straw came as my brother and I were sailing along outside of the port of Long beach breakwater in it on starboard tack, and I looked down and the port (leward) shroud was litterally dangling out in the breeze becuase a chainplate pin had failed.

So I calmly told my brother to look in the cuddy for a little zip-lock bag full of spare parts, fittings, and bolts, find a screw or a nail or something, and reattach the shroud to the chainplate while I continued sailing.

We would need to tack soon to make the harbor entry.

My brother is not a sailor, and he panics easily, so I while I knew we were at risk of dismasting, he didnt, and I kept it that way until we were safely tied up to the dock.

He did as I requested, and I was able to tack and bring us in under sail, which was important, since that boat didnt have a motor, GPS, radio, or navigation lights. I did however carry rocket flares, and wetsuits.

I figure my Flicka will get rolled at some point if I take her offshore.

So what? She wont sink and she'll right herself quickliy, unlike my Laser, which was quite stable upsidedown with its mast stuck in the mud, let me tell you. If she loses her stick, I've got plenty of spare spars lashings, and cordage to rigg something up, and she sails downwind quite well, even reaches, sorta, under bare poles.

I have secured everything quite well also - and all the lockers now have hinges and barrel bolts to secure them.

I do not have offshore experience, because I dont feel ready for that yet. The boat however is certainly capable, engine or not. I'm working my way up gradually as I have been all along,

my OP was satire about a very real myth involving the utility of engines aboard sailing craft - I'm still waiting for the hundreds of stories about it from the millions of collective sea-miles sailed by readers here, and they havent appeared.

Here's another quiz:

if you are 30 miles out in a gale and are making a negative VMG of .5 knots to windward, how long can you stay off the beach?

answer?

60 hours.

...and 30 miles is really close to shore. In a full keel boat you have another option:

INTENTIONAL GROUNDING

Yup, you read that right. If you really cant stay off the beach, accellerate or delay the process after studing your tide tables and charts and try to run her aground on a sandy beach at or near high tide. Pick a beach that is protected from the swell as much as possible - they will exist, unless you are off the cliffs of Dover or something, and even then, I'll bet you can find a reasonably safe spot.

So if my 1500 feet of 1/4 HT chain and 1/2" brait and 4 anchors wont keep me off, I'll run my girl up on the beach like a beach cat (she only draws 3 feet of water)

If she doesnt refloat on the next tide, or is holed, I can salvage my gear and condoms, and....well, you know....

Try that tactic with a Catalina 44.

A small shallow draft full keel, etc boat gives you options that big boats dont.

Big boats are certainly more comfortable - trust me, I look longingly at the pleasure palaces at every boat show.

then, I'm snapped back to reality:

No way I could singlehandedly short tack that monster up a narrow channel.

Make a little helming mistake, crash jibe, and lose the rig.

Fail to notice that the jib sheet tail is wrapped around my foot when I tack, and have my foot amputated by it...

.....and so on and so forth...

there are trade offs with everything in life, especially when it comes banging strippers and married chicks. You take your chances doing what you love, and accept the consequences when the stripper's boyfriend breaks into her bedroom at 3:00am and beats the living crap out of you resulting in you running buck naked and bleeding down the streets of Santa Monica on the coldest night of the year.

It was fun while it lasted - but now I avoid strippers.

;-)