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Old 29-11-2011, 04:48   #181
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pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan.... not calling you a liar...
wind speed and sea's in a small boat can often seem more than in fact...
Invest in a hh wind speed instrument... see what its really doing before doing posts like this.
In my limited experience in a Corribee 21 and a Hurley 22 before that anything around 7+ would see me hove to and down below.. hell one trip I crossed 1/2 the Biscay hove to... and... though the wind was from a favourable direction I still needed my 5hp Honda OB engine for positive steering in the huge sea's....
Whats been said about big sea's blanking your sail is a fact... halfway down the back of 7-10metre sea's and your sails are dying...
I reckon you've a great little boat... just need to get your W speeds sorted... I still find I get it wrong according to UK/Portuguese/Spanish CG weather reports... they say F4... I swear I'm in a 6 with 3metre waves.... but then I've had em say its a F6 and been motoring in flat calm... you'd be amazed the difference 1 mile can make...
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Old 29-11-2011, 07:01   #182
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
....One reason race boats are less close-winded is because they are fast the Apparent Wind Angle moves way forward. They do make wider tacks to optimize VMG, but that's because they can sail fast. A much slower displacement boat (like the Flicka) may be able to tack closer to the wind because the AWA is closer to the True Wind Angle.

I would guess that a Flicka would have difficulty regularly tacking through 90 degrees, but if you're not looking for best VMG, just the tightest angle (and this includes the leeway), it might be possible.

(I've never sailed a Flicka.)
You used 'might' and 'may' in your descriptions of how a Flicka might sail closer to the true wind than a performance boat, but I think if you actually looked at the polars for the two boats or tried them in normal conditions side by side, you'd find this just ain't true. While the performance boat is sailing faster and thus bringing the apparent wind forward, it is also creating a lot of lift with its foil keel. A slow going full keel boat pointing as high as possible is going to have a ton of leeway - thus not making anywhere near the 90* tacks implied.
I'm not knocking Flickas -- just knocking the unrealistic view of what they are. They are a nicely fitted, small, heavy, slow boat, that doesn't point high or tack well. As I mentioned before, if I owned one I'd own a trailer too. That way you could experience wildly different sailing areas without long hauls on a short waterline.
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Old 29-11-2011, 07:13   #183
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I am losingthe bubble on this thread which started as sort of an alarmist post about clawing off a lee shore. Some contending that if you need to use a motor you either aren't an able seaman or have a crappy boat.

Another camp says it's totally fair game to use a motor and in fact if you have a motor you'd be foolish not to use all available means to avoid the rocks including ground tackle.

It sort of devolved (evolved?) into a Flicka thread - I certainly mean no insult to the Flicka or anyone who drives them but as this is a Forum of information there are some things being posted that should not be allowed to stand.

Yes - Video doesn't lie. However the Beaufort scale is pretty clear that at 25kts you get spray off the white caps. I did not see that evident in any video presented.

In terms of wave heights here is one way to guage. On my small boat when I am standing at the helm my eye height is about 8 feet above sea level. If I enter a trough and cannot see the horizon at the bottom (because I am looking at the front side of the next wave) the wave height is about or greater than 2 meters. Keep this in mind when talking about 20 foot waves...
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Old 29-11-2011, 07:21   #184
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Lack of waterline is the killer for cruising on a time limit for sure. I remember going "Man I'd sure like to go THERE this weekend" only to have to settle for something else because I simply didn't have the time. I got my first experience with "waterline" recently when delivering that H-54 we refitted under power. I was flat out stunned at how fast that boat was and how much ground she covered. 2,200 RPM at 12 knots.... I was really bummed that the rig wasn't right and we couldn't sail that beast. Looking aft was like looking off the stern of a powerboat, amazing... Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled flogging.

The reason I said 20 knots max is not enough white horses and the spray isn't being taken off the waves. Wave height can be deceptive on video and can vary a LOT depending on where you are. Hell, I've seen 12 foot rollers in 50 knots and 18 foot breaking waves in 35 knots up here in the PNW. You can never really tell unless you're on the damned boat and way offshore.

Nice photo spread exCalif. The kinda stuff seen OFFSHORE but not around here so much.
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Old 29-11-2011, 10:14   #185
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
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You used 'might' and 'may' in your descriptions of how a Flicka might sail closer to the true wind than a performance boat, but I think if you actually looked at the polars for the two boats or tried them in normal conditions side by side, you'd find this just ain't true. While the performance boat is sailing faster and thus bringing the apparent wind forward, it is also creating a lot of lift with its foil keel. A slow going full keel boat pointing as high as possible is going to have a ton of leeway - thus not making anywhere near the 90* tacks implied. [...]
Yes, the polars would tell the true story -- I'm just guessing. True about the foils, a good fin keel/rudder design will generate much more lift than a full keel on a wineglass hull. Still, there are *some* slower boats that can sail closer to the true wind than *some* faster boats going for best VMG. I don't know where the Flicka fits into that continuum.

I know the OP claimed 90-degree tacks, and I myself am a little skeptical, but wanted to point out that in fast boats the AWA pulls forward a *lot*, so the tacking angle comparison can be complicated. My own boat can't realistically tack in 90 degrees, but then I've got a roller-furling 120% headsail, outside-the-shroud sheeting, a big dodger, a shoal-keel, and plenty of other performance-killing crap.

What I was really reacting to was the proposition that the Flicka couldn't get out of her own way (go to windward) in a 20 kt breeze. This is just plain false in normal conditions.
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Old 29-11-2011, 10:42   #186
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

...if I go back to Dockhead's embayed,
OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

and put myself on the other side of Ex-Califs pictures, I can read the pertinent lee shore posts with interest .But I like "Embayed" .. for a real thrill-perhaps At bay is as good
Hogan's small boat chauvinism has little effect on me.Aluminum,fibreglass hulls,ss rigging,Marconi rig ,pump heads and motors that don't start with a hand crank are all for pansies....
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Old 29-11-2011, 11:09   #187
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post

I find it very normal to tack upwind in a channel. There is no reason to get upset about that and I always give way when I'm motoring in a channel and meet a tacking sailboat, even when I have right of way. Last time that happened it was Don Street on Little Iolair (no engine aboard) who tacked outwards through the reefs in South Grenada as I was coming in to St. Davids Harbour.

cheers,
Nick.
Theres nothing wrong with tacking up a channel, But the post of the OP included tacking throu the "crouds" and over a busy holliday weekend.. Its an accident waiting to happen..
I've sailied in and out of these same areas spoken and durring a weekend or holliday weekend, the boats comming and going resemble 5 o'clock traffic on a downtown city street.. its not a place to play.. Not say that people dont do it..
Last time entering "King" harbor, the boats were stacked up outside the break water waiting for their position to enter.. comming in you were a mear 50 to 80 feet off the boat in front of you and the same with the boat behind you.. not a place to be sailing when crowded..
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Old 29-11-2011, 12:00   #188
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan: Wow, did you kick the hornets nest! It's not surprising that you've gotten stung.
Loved your video,and like the Flicka,and it's great that you love your boat ,most here love theirs too ; but to infer your children are superior to all the other kids in the school in all regards, is to invite a public lynching(or spanking) by the other parents.
Thanks for keeping this forum interesting, we are all waiting for your thoughts on anchors and multihulls.
Did I mix my metaphors?
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Old 29-11-2011, 13:12   #189
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You'd think we were all sailing square riggers from the way some folks post around here!

If I had an inherently unseaworthy boat that was ill equiped for storms, and I was a foolish skipper, I'd think my engine was my only hope too, because, well, it would be my only hope in the gale I'd quickly find myself in I suppose.

But back on topic:

Pop quiz:

True or false - 0 VMG to a mark dead upwind will keep you off a lee shore.

answer:

TRUE.

I know, its hard to believe, isnt it:

Pointing high is useless if it results in a negative VMG to windward. Most boats suffer a significant VMG hit when they try to point above 50 degrees, and are at thier best close reaching, not beating. That includes my boat. Now argue all you like, challenge my assessment of wind speeds and sea-states, but the fact remains - My boat makes way to windward quite well, in well over 20 knots, without motorsailing. She averages around 3.5 knots VMG to windward in such conditions, or 80 miles per day off that shore.

heck, a VMG of just .25 knots will put you 6 MILES further out in 24 hours.

And I have a motor, remember?

lol....

...and what the hell were you doing anywhere near land in a storm? Why didnt you stay put in port or give yourself sea room when that huge ultimate storm was forcast a week earlier by the GFS, CMC, NOAA, Passage Weather, Predict Wind, Sail Flow, Johny Mountain, Dallas Rains, and your own trick knee?

Oh, right - you only have a one week vacation, and you had to schedule it with your boss 6 months in advance. You had to be back at work on Monday to brown nose him for another 6 months to pay for your giant boat and engine.

Meanwhile, I stayed in port or out at sea becuase I quit my soul crushing jobs after saving my pennies for 20 years, and am in no hurry to get anywhere, especially back to the flourescent lights and pointless politics of the architecture or teaching professions I eeked my retirement fund from.

....and guess what?

I'm not rich - well, not rich enough to afford to purchase, outfit, maintain, and cruise a Catalina 44 without having to be back in the office kissing ass Monday morning.

but an outboard equipped Flicka?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I'm about $40k into her now, all up, new everything, sails, rigging, watermaker, icemaker, refrigation, windlass, two autopilots, AIS, etc, etc, etc.... ive put in around 1000 hours actually sailing her - I've treated it as my second job for the past few years.

and she is PAID FOR.

Hell - $40k wont even finance, insure, pay taxes, and registration, fix, depretiate, and maintain a new Honda Civic so I can sit in traffic for 3 hours every day on the 405 freeway getting flipped off by soccer moms in SUVs driving to and from my wage slavery ....but it sure as heck bought me a fine old boat and home!

....and a cute one at that! - chicks dig Flickas..

=)

and I figure I can shipwreck 10 Flickas to every one Catalina 44 I purchase and shipwreck - and still be way ahead -even on a lee shore in big waves -

I'm reasonably fit, I'm trained in advanced lifesaving, and grew up surfing, so screw the life raft - I'll don my wetsuit, grab my boogie board, sat-phone, condoms, and swimfins, and at least have some fun and go surfing as my boat sinks.

Then I'll ride a wave ashore, hitchike to the nearest 3rd world intnet cafe / cat-house, buy another Flicka, and start over.

I'm prepared to lose my ship, and even my life sailing - though I consider both unlikely, as Ive gradually built my sailing skills, and installed and sorted out every single piece of equipment on the boat myself. Still, as you can see from the video of that Princess Cruise ship wallowing around, the sea can overwhelm anything and anybody - to think otherwise is delusional.

I plan to chicken sail her downwind this winter from MDR to La Paz, taking a month or more to smell the roses, with an experienced crew, not venturing out of safe anchorages or harbors unless forcast wind speeds are below 15 knots - from the weather routing service I'll access via that sat phone, or via my long range wifi system from the unsecured cat-house wifi signals along the way.

I have true storm sails, trysl and jib, hand made from 9 oz storm oragne Dacron, tripple stitched with overhead leech cords adjusted at the tack, by Pinapple sails in Alameda, and am purchasing a Jordan series drouge for any ultimate storms I might encounter. I plan to practice with both extensively before departing too.

But I suspect my giant bright yellow assymetrical spinny will see a lot more action than my series drouge - and hopefully more than my 4 hp torqueedo too.

...and I'm headed for the equator, not the southern ocean. While I deeply admire people who circumnavigate 20 foot boats via the great capes, solo, and non-stop, I think its a very bad idea - and kinda pointless - unless like my hero Moitessier, they are doing it for the pure joy and spiritual experience - rather than competition, record setting, sponsorship, fame or fortune.

read "The Long Way"....

That's the spirit of sailing that appealls to me, not the endless drunken vacation and party-down naked in some filthy Caribean s**t hole because its cheap and picturesque aboard a lightly built Morrings charter boat while the locals try to steal my dinghy's outboard so they can feed thier families goal of guys like "Bob Bitchen"

Boats are for going to where the water is warm however.

I grew-up surfing in 50 degree winter water temps - in an untaped spring suit becuase I couldnt afford a full suit. Did you know that 52 degree water gives you an ice cream headache when you duck dive a boogie board under 12 foot storm surf?

Well, it does, and ice cream headaches, purple lips, shrivelled up balls, and the uncontrollable convulsions that accompany stage 2 hypothermia hurt like hell. Me and my freinds did that for fun every weekend when we werent smoking weed, snorting coke dropping acid, or trying to get cheeleeders drunk and alone in the bushes behind El Modena high school back in the 70ies.

Well, screw that - I'm an adult now.

80 degree water, here I come!

I still find young girls beautiful however.

Let the haters motorsail thier way back to thier heart attack and suicide inducing jobs (seriously - my peers keep having heart attacks, dying of cancer or comitting suicide - WTF?)

I'm out of the rat race.

I plan to die of cancer on some beautiful tropical beach surrounded by mokeys, parrots, and beautiful, naked teenage Thai hookers - just like Moitessier.

And it was a small, heavily built, 20 foot sailboat that liberated me - not its noisy, smelly, terrorist fueling outboard, I'll tell you that much....

I mean, if you think about it, that office job you need to pay for your giant engine is the biggest danger to your life and dreams, isnt it?

Not lee shores.
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Old 29-11-2011, 13:18   #190
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Whatever ya do, have a good time doing it Hogan...
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Old 29-11-2011, 13:40   #191
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

One of the main reasons I fell for my Hughes 38,is because of it's upwind ability,and it was affordable.The classic S&S lines show up in many other seagoing designs.My 20hp. is barely enough to keep me out of trouble,she points like crazy though.Hogan, I know where you are coming from and I agree with you.We will be in the SOC next month and look forward to seeing you down there.If in need of any insight about the trip down the baja,I would be happy to share.
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Old 29-11-2011, 13:47   #192
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

A surfer from Southern Cal, that explaines it all........Have a good trip Hogan...
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Old 29-11-2011, 13:48   #193
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !



This is definitely my new favorite thread!

(especially like the abandon ship/condom bit haha)


Frank
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Old 29-11-2011, 13:49   #194
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
I'm out of the rat race.
I Agree Hogan the world needs more adventures.
I admire your passion for your yacht, It is important to have confidence in the seaworthiness of your boat.
Take it easy.
I think some of the more experienced sailing members are concerned you may have more confidence in your boat and equipment than is appropriate.
Small boats with limited or no propulsion can be sailed safely, but this requires a lot of experience and care. Realistic acknowledgments of the compromises involved is important.
Make sure you take small steps and stay safe.
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Old 29-11-2011, 14:11   #195
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pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

ROFL.....
'Rock On Tommy....'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
You'd think we were all sailing square riggers from the way some folks post around here!

If I had an inherently unseaworthy boat that was ill equiped for storms, and I was a foolish skipper, I'd think my engine was my only hope too, because, well, it would be my only hope in the gale I'd quickly find myself in I suppose.

But back on topic:

Pop quiz:

True or false - 0 VMG to a mark dead upwind will keep you off a lee shore.

answer:

TRUE.

I know, its hard to believe, isnt it:

Pointing high is useless if it results in a negative VMG to windward. Most boats suffer a significant VMG hit when they try to point above 50 degrees, and are at thier best close reaching, not beating. That includes my boat. Now argue all you like, challenge my assessment of wind speeds and sea-states, but the fact remains - My boat makes way to windward quite well, in well over 20 knots, without motorsailing. She averages around 3.5 knots VMG to windward in such conditions, or 80 miles per day off that shore.

heck, a VMG of just .25 knots will put you 6 MILES further out in 24 hours.

And I have a motor, remember?

lol....

...and what the hell were you doing anywhere near land in a storm? Why didnt you stay put in port or give yourself sea room when that huge ultimate storm was forcast a week earlier by the GFS, CMC, NOAA, Passage Weather, Predict Wind, Sail Flow, Johny Mountain, Dallas Rains, and your own trick knee?

Oh, right - you only have a one week vacation, and you had to schedule it with your boss 6 months in advance. You had to be back at work on Monday to brown nose him for another 6 months to pay for your giant boat and engine.

Meanwhile, I stayed in port or out at sea becuase I quit my soul crushing jobs after saving my pennies for 20 years, and am in no hurry to get anywhere, especially back to the flourescent lights and pointless politics of the architecture or teaching professions I eeked my retirement fund from.

....and guess what?

I'm not rich - well, not rich enough to afford to purchase, outfit, maintain, and cruise a Catalina 44 without having to be back in the office kissing ass Monday morning.

but an outboard equipped Flicka?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I'm about $40k into her now, all up, new everything, sails, rigging, watermaker, icemaker, refrigation, windlass, two autopilots, AIS, etc, etc, etc.... ive put in around 1000 hours actually sailing her - I've treated it as my second job for the past few years.

and she is PAID FOR.

Hell - $40k wont even finance, insure, pay taxes, and registration, fix, depretiate, and maintain a new Honda Civic so I can sit in traffic for 3 hours every day on the 405 freeway getting flipped off by soccer moms in SUVs driving to and from my wage slavery ....but it sure as heck bought me a fine old boat and home!

....and a cute one at that! - chicks dig Flickas..

=)

and I figure I can shipwreck 10 Flickas to every one Catalina 44 I purchase and shipwreck - and still be way ahead -even on a lee shore in big waves -

I'm reasonably fit, I'm trained in advanced lifesaving, and grew up surfing, so screw the life raft - I'll don my wetsuit, grab my boogie board, sat-phone, condoms, and swimfins, and at least have some fun and go surfing as my boat sinks.

Then I'll ride a wave ashore, hitchike to the nearest 3rd world intnet cafe / cat-house, buy another Flicka, and start over.

I'm prepared to lose my ship, and even my life sailing - though I consider both unlikely, as Ive gradually built my sailing skills, and installed and sorted out every single piece of equipment on the boat myself. Still, as you can see from the video of that Princess Cruise ship wallowing around, the sea can overwhelm anything and anybody - to think otherwise is delusional.

I plan to chicken sail her downwind this winter from MDR to La Paz, taking a month or more to smell the roses, with an experienced crew, not venturing out of safe anchorages or harbors unless forcast wind speeds are below 15 knots - from the weather routing service I'll access via that sat phone, or via my long range wifi system from the unsecured cat-house wifi signals along the way.

I have true storm sails, trysl and jib, hand made from 9 oz storm oragne Dacron, tripple stitched with overhead leech cords adjusted at the tack, by Pinapple sails in Alameda, and am purchasing a Jordan series drouge for any ultimate storms I might encounter. I plan to practice with both extensively before departing too.

But I suspect my giant bright yellow assymetrical spinny will see a lot more action than my series drouge - and hopefully more than my 4 hp torqueedo too.

...and I'm headed for the equator, not the southern ocean. While I deeply admire people who circumnavigate 20 foot boats via the great capes, solo, and non-stop, I think its a very bad idea - and kinda pointless - unless like my hero Moitessier, they are doing it for the pure joy and spiritual experience - rather than competition, record setting, sponsorship, fame or fortune.

read "The Long Way"....

That's the spirit of sailing that appealls to me, not the endless drunken vacation and party-down naked in some filthy Caribean s**t hole because its cheap and picturesque aboard a lightly built Morrings charter boat while the locals try to steal my dinghy's outboard so they can feed thier families goal of guys like "Bob Bitchen"

Boats are for going to where the water is warm however.

I grew-up surfing in 50 degree winter water temps - in an untaped spring suit becuase I couldnt afford a full suit. Did you know that 52 degree water gives you an ice cream headache when you duck dive a boogie board under 12 foot storm surf?

Well, it does, and ice cream headaches, purple lips, shrivelled up balls, and the uncontrollable convulsions that accompany stage 2 hypothermia hurt like hell. Me and my freinds did that for fun every weekend when we werent smoking weed, snorting coke dropping acid, or trying to get cheeleeders drunk and alone in the bushes behind El Modena high school back in the 70ies.

Well, screw that - I'm an adult now.

80 degree water, here I come!

I still find young girls beautiful however.

Let the haters motorsail thier way back to thier heart attack and suicide inducing jobs (seriously - my peers keep having heart attacks, dying of cancer or comitting suicide - WTF?)

I'm out of the rat race.

I plan to die of cancer on some beautiful tropical beach surrounded by mokeys, parrots, and beautiful, naked teenage Thai hookers - just like Moitessier.

And it was a small, heavily built, 20 foot sailboat that liberated me - not its noisy, smelly, terrorist fueling outboard, I'll tell you that much....

I mean, if you think about it, that office job you need to pay for your giant engine is the biggest danger to your life and dreams, isnt it?

Not lee shores.
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